Hey Iclick.............I agree with all these guy about you and you have always been right on and honest with your 2 cents worth.................please tell us all, are you a bike wrench, possibly with a dealership? would bring my bike to you if your shop was available...........thanks

 

You're right that the HD tuner (SEST) and PCV don't measure airflow themselves, but the ECU responds to the MAP sensor that measures kPA (airflow). This and other sensors monitored by the ECU are operational whether a SEST or PCV is being used as a tuner.

 

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My tuner just installed this on my bike a week ago. I am very happy with it. The bike is a lot more responsive, runs a lot stronger, and idle better. I have to fill the tank up and go for a long ride to see how the gas mileage has improved.

 

On the brand new, 09-up bikes with lambda based tuning I wouldn't use a PCV. Why remove the 02 sensors? I would definitely argue it is a disadvantage. If you fill up at a different station, and change fuels from E0 to E10 you just shifted fueling requirements by 4% and the PCV equipped bike has no method to compensate for it. With a TTS or race tuner it's going to roll the new fuel values into adaptive memory and it's going to apply wether it's running closed loop or not.

The technology is better, it's just far more involved (and more expensive, if you can't tune it yourself) to take advantage of it. Your dealer was right.

 

No, I'm a semi-retired photographer and a certified jackleg wrench. I just like fooling with these things and try to learn as much as I can about making them better. I've picked-up 99% of what I know from DIY and reading this and other forums. I'm the poster boy for for the phrase "jack of all trades and master of none." I wonder how that poster might look. Maybe me with grease on my face, wrenches in hand, under a shade tree.

Thanks to you and 2black1s for the nice words. I try hard to give correct info as I see it, based on my experience on a given subject, and if I'm not sure about something I always start out with "I think" or insert "IMO" somewhere in the sentence. (I do that a lot.) When I'm wrong I expect someone to correct me, as that's how we all learn.

 

IMHO I would strongly disagree with this stmt. Do your own research and talk to ppl like Iclick. Having gone that route (local tuner recommendation) I can say that I probably wasted about $1k. Once you install an SEST on your bike; that device is married to your bike. You can still put on a PCV and disable it but what a waste of $$$. Make an informed decision!

 

There isn't an important disadvantage in eliminating the O2 sensors and running in open-loop mode. The stock narrow-band O2 sensors do no more than act as switches to keep AFRs at stoich (14.6:1) for the purpose of EPA compliance and work only in a limited range of operation, mostly at idle and the cruise range. They don't work at all above about 50% throttle position. These can be adjusted with any flash-based tuner (SEST, PV, TTS, etc.) to switch at AFRs above or below stoich, but not much and are limited to around 14.2-15.0:1 as well as in only a narrow range of operation.

I just installed the new PowerVision, which is a new flash-based tuner made by DynoJet. I have the options of using stock O2 sensors (closed-loop), open-loop (no sensors), or open-loop with the ability to import tuning info from DynoJet's AT-100 Auto-Tune modules with wideband O2 sensors. That last option is not ready yet as DJ is still working on the software and cables. I will be using open-loop for the time being, then since I already have the AT-100 will be able to apply AT logs to the tune when the software and appropriate cables are available, probably in about a month. This is a state-of-the-art tuner and I think will catch-on quickly, although the price is fairly high compared to the PCV, and I still think the PCV from FM is the way to go for most riders.

The ECU is perfectly capable of adjusting for humidity, altitude, etc. without the O2 sensors whether using a flash-based tuner or the PCV, and my opinion is that there is little or no advantage to using the stock O2 sensors in a Stage 1 application. If I had opted for SEST or TTS, i.e. without the ability to use the AT import feature available only with PV, I'm not sure if I would use them or not.

We'll have to disagree here, but it is certain that tuner preference is the subject of much debate here and elsewhere. In some circles it approaches religious fervor and often gets very irrational and polarized. It shouldn't be, as most of the established tuners on the market are very good, and which is best for any one rider varies with the needs at hand.

The dealer in question said the PCV would not incorporate the sensors available to the ECU--implying MAP, etc.--and except for O2 sensors this is not true. OTOH if you want to use the stock NB O2 sensors you could buy the PCEX, which is emissions-certified and are designed to work with stock O2 sensors, but I've never heard of anyone using these. You could also use O2 sensors with the PCV-USB, which isn't really designed to work with them, but you'd need to adjust your map accordingly, and I've never heard of anyone doing this either. I thought about playing around with this but decided against it.

"Better" is relative. Flash-based tuners have features you don't find in the PCV, but the reverse is also true. I chose the PCV initially, then added Auto-Tune, mostly because I wanted to make changes to my configuration over time and AT-100 makes the PCV a true AFR auto-tuning device. With any flash-based tuner you need to perform a dyno-tune unless you're very fortunate and can find a good canned tune somewhere, which are few and far between. That raises the price far above a PCV with a canned map, and the map you get from a local dyno-tune may very likely be less-optimal than the one you get from FM with the PCV. You can't discount the human factor here, as not all tuners are created equal.

Most of the tables and features accessible with the flash-based tuners won't be of interest to most riders, and the same is true of those in the PCV, as a majority of riders just want to plug-and-play. For these riders I believe the PCV is a better choice if purchased from Fuel Moto with a map created for that bike, as a dyno-tune is not required and the cost is much lower. IMO this is especially true if cost is a factor.

 

I would agree with this only if you must have a custom dyno-tune performed, but that is an expensive road to follow. The thrust of my argument in favor of the PCV is that Fuel Moto provides very accurate maps and have a very large database from which a rider can tap into for future upgrades. In a bang-for-the-buck contest it wins hands-down, IMO.

My local HD dealer prefers to tune with the PCV, others will prefer SEST, etc., etc., ad nauseam. Thus, most tunes done here are with the PCV, and if a dyno-tune must be done I see little advantage of one tuner or another for most riders. Few will use the software of any tuner they choose to delve into the features provided, as most just want a good-running bike.

 

That's a good point that hasn't been raised here yet. A PCV can be transferred to another compatible bike, or if not compatible you can sell it. Flash-based tuners must stay with the bike, so as you buy new bikes you'll need to buy a tuner for every one of them. That can get expensive unless you keep a bike forever like I do. Mine is 4YO with 42k miles and it has just begun its life with me.