Why can't I win????
I think you're low on compression. Are you running stock heads? The cc on them is usually 84-85. The calculator has that on it because that is what they usually are. What altitude are you above sea level? It will make a difference in your CCC. If you give me all the stats I'll tell you what your dyamic is. 8.32:1 for static compression is way too low.
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I think you're low on compression. Are you running stock heads? The cc on them is usually 84-85. The calculator has that on it because that is what they usually are. What altitude are you above sea level? It will make a difference in your CCC. If you give me all the stats I'll tell you what your dyamic is. 8.32:1 for static compression is way too low.
I was wondering if 150 was low or not. I did the compression check cold and got 149-150 on both cylinders for 3 tests each. The heads are stock, bore is 95, cams are 26N's we are at 600 ft above sea level in Illinois.
Hope this helps- if the rings were bad, causing lost compression, or if the gasket has went bad, causing low compression wouldn't I hear that in the leak down test? I couldn't hear any air leaking anywhere and gauge took about 2 min to even move down 5 points.
Using the BigBoyz calculator you should have 170 psi at that altitude. You are 20 psi shy. This is what happened to me when I bored my 96 to a 103. I took it in to be dynoed. It put out 83 hp/94 torque. I was truly disappointed. Did a CCC and a leak down. 130 psi on the CCC and 7% on leak down. Leak down within spec, CCC low. Could only figure the bore job was less than perfect. Punched it out to a 107 and had the heads done by NHRS. They did good job on the bore and a crappy job on the heads. With a TW-6-6 cam it made 92 hp/ 106 tq. I figured it should have done that with no head work. So anyway had some heads done at Lozano Bros. and went to a TR-590 cam. Runs great now and has 195 psi CCC @ 1250 ft altitude. Some of that is more bore, some is 83cc heads, but most of it is the rings are sealing for the full stroke of the piston. With your leak down and the low compression I would say yours is not sealing for the full stroke. You can buy another set of cylinders for $20-40 and use the pistons you have or you can buy 98 ci pistons and use the cylinders you have. Either way have someone reputable bore it. Revolution Performance would be a good choice and they are not far from you. I would shoot for a compression ratio of 10:1 at least. This will give you a CCC around 190 psi. It will make a difference in how your bike performs. Then get it dyno tuned by someone that knows what they're doing.
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2010
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From: Tennessee
Sam-
I have not negated the possibility that they simply push harder than I do, or ride better than I do. I'm not a jackwagon out street racing, if you're trying to sell the line of BS that says you never grab a handful of throttle and go either with or without your buddies around, I would tell you I ain't buying it!
I've said at least twice in this thread, that regardless of whether or not I was trying to out perform my buddies bike, mine just doesn't have the performance gains I would expect with the set up I have. I expected the cams to be from around 1800-5000 ish ( this is what I expected the TQ part to be very fast at), what I feel is a sharp drop off in power around 4ooo-4500, from there I would expect the HP to kick in and continue to build speed not fall on it's face.
I was able to get the leak down and compression test done late last night, both cylinders reported 150 on compression and < 5% leak down i.e. the gauge didn't hardly move for several minutes. So this tells me that cylinders, rings, and valves are in good shape. This confirms what we saw when we did the head gasket this past spring.
I have not looked at the gearing yet I hope to do that this week.
Maybe something else I need to look at is how hard I run it. Would someone be willing to walk me through their typical shift sequence in this situation? I know lugging my bike it bad news, but does taking it to red line hurt?
Thanks for the replies
Now about the BB calculator:
not real sure what I need to do there to get the compression ratio to be correct. I played with the head CC number until the corrected compression number matched 150, that tells me that my static compression is 8.32.1 and corrected is 7.82.1 ( I had to input 95 cc head value for this) Does this sound right????
I have not negated the possibility that they simply push harder than I do, or ride better than I do. I'm not a jackwagon out street racing, if you're trying to sell the line of BS that says you never grab a handful of throttle and go either with or without your buddies around, I would tell you I ain't buying it!
I've said at least twice in this thread, that regardless of whether or not I was trying to out perform my buddies bike, mine just doesn't have the performance gains I would expect with the set up I have. I expected the cams to be from around 1800-5000 ish ( this is what I expected the TQ part to be very fast at), what I feel is a sharp drop off in power around 4ooo-4500, from there I would expect the HP to kick in and continue to build speed not fall on it's face.
I was able to get the leak down and compression test done late last night, both cylinders reported 150 on compression and < 5% leak down i.e. the gauge didn't hardly move for several minutes. So this tells me that cylinders, rings, and valves are in good shape. This confirms what we saw when we did the head gasket this past spring.
I have not looked at the gearing yet I hope to do that this week.
Maybe something else I need to look at is how hard I run it. Would someone be willing to walk me through their typical shift sequence in this situation? I know lugging my bike it bad news, but does taking it to red line hurt?
Thanks for the replies
Now about the BB calculator:
not real sure what I need to do there to get the compression ratio to be correct. I played with the head CC number until the corrected compression number matched 150, that tells me that my static compression is 8.32.1 and corrected is 7.82.1 ( I had to input 95 cc head value for this) Does this sound right????
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,788
Likes: 5
From: Tennessee
With times like these I find it hard to believe that the CBR600 beat you to 660ft. I had a 12 sec Dyna and most stock Japs of 1000cc couldn't stay with me to 1000 ft, but maybe you come on harder at the end. I did have a friend with a FatBoy 95 ci that was turning mid 11's so your claims are believable to me.
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Using the BigBoyz calculator you should have 170 psi at that altitude. You are 20 psi shy. This is what happened to me when I bored my 96 to a 103. I took it in to be dynoed. It put out 83 hp/94 torque. I was truly disappointed. Did a CCC and a leak down. 130 psi on the CCC and 7% on leak down. Leak down within spec, CCC low. Could only figure the bore job was less than perfect. Punched it out to a 107 and had the heads done by NHRS. They did good job on the bore and a crappy job on the heads. With a TW-6-6 cam it made 92 hp/ 106 tq. I figured it should have done that with no head work. So anyway had some heads done at Lozano Bros. and went to a TR-590 cam. Runs great now and has 195 psi CCC @ 1250 ft altitude. Some of that is more bore, some is 83cc heads, but most of it is the rings are sealing for the full stroke of the piston. With your leak down and the low compression I would say yours is not sealing for the full stroke. You can buy another set of cylinders for $20-40 and use the pistons you have or you can buy 98 ci pistons and use the cylinders you have. Either way have someone reputable bore it. Revolution Performance would be a good choice and they are not far from you. I would shoot for a compression ratio of 10:1 at least. This will give you a CCC around 190 psi. It will make a difference in how your bike performs. Then get it dyno tuned by someone that knows what they're doing.
Thanks for the information. What youre saying makes sense to me at this point. Guess, I will just drive it until the snow starts falling and then tear into it. I'm still finding the best places for parts so would you care to share where you are getting cylinders at that price from, and then any idea the best place to get pistons if I go that route?
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As far as shifting is concerned you need to know exactly where your rev limiter is by sound. You dont need to be watchin your tach. Learn to speed shift without ever lifting off the throttle. If you clutch and bang a gear at 50 rpm from the rev limiter, while holding it at full throttle, it will sound just like you lifted to shift. By the time the rev limiter kicks in your already out on the clutch and pulling ahead. I win LOTS of races like this but it takes practice to do it correctly. When done right it will be as smooth as an automatic trans in your pickup. I'm sure i'll get bashed for telling you this so bring it on. I've been doin this for 30+ years, Never replaced a clutch or a gear. Sig bike has 50k+ miles on original clutch.
not that I'm scared of it as I've been around bikes my whole life but mostly dirt stuff. This bike is almost 900 lbs of bone crushing metal and I have a very high level of respect for it. I still have yet to burn the rear tire in power brake style lol..... I will give it some practice though and let you know how it turns out. The biggest worry for me is the rev limiter, does hitting it hurt the motor? I hear the CR guys hitting there's all the time at stop lights trying to sound cool, but never heard a HD do it, kinda thought that was bad on the valve train etc, or is it???
I'm still finding the best places for parts so would you care to share where you are getting cylinders at that price from, and then any idea the best place to get pistons if I go that route?
Last edited by $tonecold; Sep 14, 2011 at 02:32 PM.
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From: san antonio
Sputter,
Here is what I posted back in #25.
OK, you have the results from the compression and leak down test; leak down OK, sort of anyway, but compression, not so much. My calculator shows your static should be 9:1, CCR 167psi and corrected CR 8.45. So, your top end need some attention.
I would not go to 98" as that would require a set of forged pistons; I like to stay with cast if possible. So, get a set of .010" OS H-D 10.25:1 cast hi-compression pistons, cylinders bored to fit, heads worked ala BigBoyz or Short Block Charlie, (larger intake, basic velocity street port chambers cc'd and balanced, bronze guides, manual compression releases and multi angle valve job), .030" head gasket and install TW37 cams. Now you are looking at 10.14 static, CCR of 192 and corrected CR of 9.39 and show your buddies some tailights. 9.3 is a good target for corrected CR on a street build and 192psi is manageable without compression releases but I would install them anyway just to extend battery and starter life.
I would not bother with decking the heads and using flat top pistons to get the additional compression. JMHO, but achieving the desired compression with a domed piston is a better way to get there. If you have the money and desire to upgade the cam plate/tensioner system the the SE Hybrid system that would be a good idea and an ideal time for the upgrade. However, if you don't want to spend the $$, replace the tensioners, the inner and outer cam bearings and install the Baisley LMR-002 oil pressure relief valve spring.
Get a fuel management system and get her tuned by somebody familiar with MM EFI; those are a bit more challenging than the Delphi system. Get a break in tune, get about 1000 miles on the motor and back for a full tune and then line up with your buddies; it will be different race. Oh yeah, take the advice on how to ride when racing.
As always, JMHO and everybody has one.
Here is what I posted back in #25.
Originally Posted by djl
Nothing has gone astray, the map doesn't change. Part of your problem is trying to use the map with the old MM EFI system. You need to eventually get the bike on a dyno and the motor tuned but address the issues first; like establishing the condition of the top end.
One thing that isn't adding up is that the '99 EFI bikes came with 3.37 final drives; you should have that going for you. I would pull the chain case cover and verify the tooth count on the sprockets and the tooth count on the trans and wheel pulleys. I know 88" bikes with 3.37 gearing and mild cams that will spank a Stage I 96"er.
Yes, you should be thinking about head work and more cam (TW37) to go along with the headwork and more compression; a simple BigBoyz street port would make a big difference. A 2:1 pipe would help but the duals are not your problem and Fullsac makes a good system.
Get the compression and leak down test done, post the results and there is enough help on this forum to put you back in the hunt with your two riding buddies.
One thing that isn't adding up is that the '99 EFI bikes came with 3.37 final drives; you should have that going for you. I would pull the chain case cover and verify the tooth count on the sprockets and the tooth count on the trans and wheel pulleys. I know 88" bikes with 3.37 gearing and mild cams that will spank a Stage I 96"er.
Yes, you should be thinking about head work and more cam (TW37) to go along with the headwork and more compression; a simple BigBoyz street port would make a big difference. A 2:1 pipe would help but the duals are not your problem and Fullsac makes a good system.
Get the compression and leak down test done, post the results and there is enough help on this forum to put you back in the hunt with your two riding buddies.
I would not go to 98" as that would require a set of forged pistons; I like to stay with cast if possible. So, get a set of .010" OS H-D 10.25:1 cast hi-compression pistons, cylinders bored to fit, heads worked ala BigBoyz or Short Block Charlie, (larger intake, basic velocity street port chambers cc'd and balanced, bronze guides, manual compression releases and multi angle valve job), .030" head gasket and install TW37 cams. Now you are looking at 10.14 static, CCR of 192 and corrected CR of 9.39 and show your buddies some tailights. 9.3 is a good target for corrected CR on a street build and 192psi is manageable without compression releases but I would install them anyway just to extend battery and starter life.
I would not bother with decking the heads and using flat top pistons to get the additional compression. JMHO, but achieving the desired compression with a domed piston is a better way to get there. If you have the money and desire to upgade the cam plate/tensioner system the the SE Hybrid system that would be a good idea and an ideal time for the upgrade. However, if you don't want to spend the $$, replace the tensioners, the inner and outer cam bearings and install the Baisley LMR-002 oil pressure relief valve spring.
Get a fuel management system and get her tuned by somebody familiar with MM EFI; those are a bit more challenging than the Delphi system. Get a break in tune, get about 1000 miles on the motor and back for a full tune and then line up with your buddies; it will be different race. Oh yeah, take the advice on how to ride when racing.
As always, JMHO and everybody has one.