If that were the case, wouldn't the bike run bad with or without the PCV? He said it runs fine without the PCV, if the factory calibration was messed up wouldn't the bike run bad even without the PCV?

 

Yes you are correct, I have been going off of the several emails i recieved of different things they have tried when he noticed the O2 sensors were still connected, I was not certain that they had tried removing the PC-V unit. I have also yet to see the map they did on the dyno. The first test they need to do is to install the PC-V with our original map with the O2 sensors bypassed and start there. The fact they were trying to tune the PC-V with the O2 sensors installed throws a major flag as it will clearly not work. If needed we can link up to his unit remotely and check all of the settings and map and work forward from there.

 

Got a PCV from Fuelmoto, the bike ran o.k. at 1st . I took it and had it dynoed and a map build at a HD dealer that likes to do Power Commanders.
The bike was running good and all of a sudden it quit runing very good at all.
Took it to Wolfgang Grasser and he dynoed the bike and when he opened the map up he showed me that the PCV had erased most of the map.
I got a Thunder-Max and put it on. The problems I was having with the PCV are gone.

The PCV is a piggy back unit, and water will effect it if you get any in it.
The TM completely replaces the ECM and does not take up the space that the PCV does.

 

could someone explain why the pcv tune should be used with the O2 sensor info disconnected ????

Let me explain my question, the way to use PCV is to flash a new tune, then remove and store the pcv unit.

The ECM will then compare the O2 sensor information with the Tune requested air fuel ratio and modify the amount of fuel to inject ( more or less ) to get the ratio required by the tune.

So the O2 sensor information is 100% necessary !!!

What I am missing , Jamie could you comment ?

edit : well I might be confused .. PCV stands for Power vision or power commander FIVE ?

 

had a cold start issue with my PCV, sent it to Dynojet for testing/diag. and it was deemed a defect, got a new one on the way,
am upgrading to the PV eliminating the piggyback.

btw... the techs over there are awesome !

 

I'm surprised it even started with the 02 sensors still attached, probably cuz you still have the CAT? I have a catlless header pipe with my BUB 7's and my bike would not start period with the 02 sensors hooked up after I installed the PCV, problem solved after I read the directions that state: remove 02 sensors... d'oh

 

The PCV is designed to work in open-loop mode with the O2 sensors disconnected. You could theoretically attach them, but it would be prudent to zero all the values in the cruise-range where the sensors operate, and IMO it would be difficult or impossible to do that accurately. The problem is that the PCV will take the signals from the ECM and make changes based on the map that's installed in the PCV. For example, if you have a "10" in a given cell of either Fuel Adj. tables the PCV will be instructing the injector to provide 10% more fuel than the ECM dictates. If you have the O2 sensors installed the signal will be changed as before by the PCV, but when the O2 sensor reads a richer-than-normal AFR it will instruct the ECM to reduce fuel, and that counteracts what the PCV is trying to do. If the O2 sensors are not attached the PCV adds the fuel without the ECM even knowing it is doing so.

It should be mentioned that the PCV can work with the optional Auto-Tune module, which works with wideband (WB) O2 sensors. These sensors work throughout the operating range, not just at idle and the cruise-range as with the stock NB sensors, and work with the PCV to keep AFR's to spec in real-time, not through the ECM. The ECM doesn't even know the PCV or AT is attached.


You don't "flash" the ECM with the PCV, if that's your question, as it can't be done. The PCV works downstream of the ECM at all times and is never disconnected unless you want to go back to stock for some reason.

The O2 sensors are never "necessary," unless you are trying to comply with EPA mandates, and even then it may be debatable. Assuming the PCV isn't installed, the tune in the bike should make it run very near to that which you would have with the O2 sensors attached. The sensors only act as switches to keep AFR's at a tighter spec (14.6:1) in normal operation.

Not to confuse the discussion, but I'm running my bike in open-loop mode (no O2 sensors working in real-time with the ECM) and tune with the Power Vision. Unlike the PCV it is a flash-based tuner than works through the ECM, not as a device that changes the parameters downstream of it. Hopefully without getting too OT, I can monitor Lambda (AFR) while riding the bike and the values that I've specified in my tune do not vary much, likely little more than if the stock O2 sensors were attached. Thus, neither performance nor mileage is affected. My point in all this is that the O2 sensors are installed for one reason, to keep tighter reins on emissions to meet EPA regs, not as a piece of hardware that must be installed for the system to work properly. Remember that prior to 2006, touring bikes did not have O2 sensors at all and ran in open-loop mode at all times with the same basic ECM setup we have now.


PCV is the usual acronym for Power Commander 5 and PV is Power Vision. After flashing the tune from the PV to ECM, the PV can be removed entirely. The PCV is a "piggyback" system and must remain attached and in the data flow for it to work.

 

great info iclick, next question is would it be sort of senseless to have a bike dyno tuned by an indie/dealer tuner after flashing a canned map(s) per modifications on a new PV install? prolly not a bad idea for a EFI novice such as myself, or even spot checked to make sure canned maps are exact matched?

 

Very happy with my PCV. The fuelmoto power pack was one of the very first thing I did to my bike. The installation was very easy following the instructions from fuelmoto which very clearly direct you to unplug the O2 sensors. The map has been spot on. 36,000 miles later, lots of rain, washes, etc... it's still spot on.

 

Update...

I unplugged the O2 sensors... Loaded the original Map I have from Fuel Moto... bike ran fine!!!

Moral of the story: Always recheck what the dealer does... Make sure your O2 sensors are unplugged when u install a PCv