ABS light stays on
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Intermediate
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 38
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From:
A possible explanation for the codes and ABS light issue may have been caused by the mechanic who last worked on my bike. I took it in for new tires and while it was there I asked them to change the oil in the motor and primary case. It is possible the mechanic started the motor after changing the oil but while the wheels were still off. This would have set up the condition of the front WSS not properly positioned and setting up the fault code. If the mechanic realized this, he could have cleared the code and saved me a lot of grief.
Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 138
Likes: 2
From: Small Country
A possible explanation for the codes and ABS light issue may have been caused by the mechanic who last worked on my bike. I took it in for new tires and while it was there I asked them to change the oil in the motor and primary case. It is possible the mechanic started the motor after changing the oil but while the wheels were still off. This would have set up the condition of the front WSS not properly positioned and setting up the fault code. If the mechanic realized this, he could have cleared the code and saved me a lot of grief.
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 8
From: Detroit, the asshole of America
Slight brake drag is not going to cause the ABS light to stay on. I've done rolling burnouts in the rain on my bike, if the wheel speed difference of a slightly dragging brake would leave the light on it certainly would come on for burnouts and that is not the case. It's indicating an open circuit, so check the wiring, then check the sensor at the wheel. Pretty simple, hopefully if it's the sensor it's cheap from a dealer.
The light goes out as soon as it sees 3mph from both sensors. If the light is not going out, you're not getting wheel speed from one or both of them.
On our bikes the rotors are definitely the floating pieces. MC's usually have floating rotors, not calipers.
I would think if the rear brake switch has set a code you won't have cruise control. Does the rear brake pedal activate the brake light?
The light goes out as soon as it sees 3mph from both sensors. If the light is not going out, you're not getting wheel speed from one or both of them.
On our bikes the rotors are definitely the floating pieces. MC's usually have floating rotors, not calipers.
I would think if the rear brake switch has set a code you won't have cruise control. Does the rear brake pedal activate the brake light?
Last edited by blusmbl; Dec 22, 2011 at 09:58 AM.
Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 138
Likes: 2
From: Small Country
Slight brake drag is not going to cause the ABS light to stay on. I've done rolling burnouts in the rain on my bike, if the wheel speed difference of a slightly dragging brake would leave the light on it certainly would come on for burnouts and that is not the case. It's indicating an open circuit, so check the wiring, then check the sensor at the wheel. Pretty simple, hopefully if it's the sensor it's cheap from a dealer.
The light goes out as soon as it sees 3mph from both sensors. If the light is not going out, you're not getting wheel speed from one or both of them.
On our bikes the rotors are definitely the floating pieces. MC's usually have floating rotors, not calipers.
I would think if the rear brake switch has set a code you won't have cruise control. Does the rear brake pedal activate the brake light?
The light goes out as soon as it sees 3mph from both sensors. If the light is not going out, you're not getting wheel speed from one or both of them.
On our bikes the rotors are definitely the floating pieces. MC's usually have floating rotors, not calipers.
I would think if the rear brake switch has set a code you won't have cruise control. Does the rear brake pedal activate the brake light?
This is why I still believe that the problem in this case was not a drug on the front wheel but rather imporper re-assembly of the WSS after they replaced the wheel. Broken wire is not the suspect- otherwise it would make no difference does Mike back up the bike or goes traight forward. From his description it looks like that the ABS code is set only if he first backs the bike up, then goes forward. Which indicates that there may have been some play between the WSS and the magnetic ring inside the hub.
As for not being able to set the cruise if you had a brake switch code - that would be true if the code was "Brake Switch Shorted" code. Mike had an "open" code (the ABS did not "see" brake switch applied when the vehicle was actually decellerating). Open Brake switch does not prevent setting the cruise, only closed (shorted) brake switch does. Open Brake switch is normal condition while you are riding.
Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 138
Likes: 2
From: Small Country
Mike’s problem kept me scratching my head and with the help of my neighbor I managed to set a Front Wheel Speed Sensor code while simulating binding front brakes.
Here is what we did:
- Disconnected the Front Brake Switch so that the ABS has no idea if the brake is applied or not.
- Turned Ignition ON and accelerated the bike somewhat downhill till it exceeded 3 mph
- Then applied the front brake while still pushing the bike backwards (to simulate binding front brakes)
The ABS set a code; the ABS Light came solid ON.
Then we started the bike (without cycling Ignition OFF/ON), the ABS light stayed ON.
We rode for 5 minutes, the light stayed on.
Then we stopped the bike, all lights went OFF.
Reconnected brake switch, rode the bike – everything was normal
Now, for a single person to be able to repeat this one has to back up his bike really downhill, to be able to exceed the 3mph threshold.
Wild guess, but is can be done.
Here is what we did:
- Disconnected the Front Brake Switch so that the ABS has no idea if the brake is applied or not.
- Turned Ignition ON and accelerated the bike somewhat downhill till it exceeded 3 mph
- Then applied the front brake while still pushing the bike backwards (to simulate binding front brakes)
The ABS set a code; the ABS Light came solid ON.
Then we started the bike (without cycling Ignition OFF/ON), the ABS light stayed ON.
We rode for 5 minutes, the light stayed on.
Then we stopped the bike, all lights went OFF.
Reconnected brake switch, rode the bike – everything was normal
Now, for a single person to be able to repeat this one has to back up his bike really downhill, to be able to exceed the 3mph threshold.
Wild guess, but is can be done.
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 8
From: Detroit, the asshole of America
What code did it set when the ABS light was on?
If both brake switches have an open circuit code the cruise control has to be disabled otherwise Harley has a lawsuit on their hands. I would not be surprised if cruise is disabled for an open circuit on just one of the two brake switch inputs.
If both brake switches have an open circuit code the cruise control has to be disabled otherwise Harley has a lawsuit on their hands. I would not be surprised if cruise is disabled for an open circuit on just one of the two brake switch inputs.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,846
Likes: 173
From: Simi Valley, CA
Aborigen2 - Welcome aboard! It's nice to have someone with your knowledge of electronics on board. Electronics is one of my weaknesses.
Last edited by 2black1s; Dec 22, 2011 at 01:10 PM.
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Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 138
Likes: 2
From: Small Country
What code did it set when the ABS light was on?
If both brake switches have an open circuit code the cruise control has to be disabled otherwise Harley has a lawsuit on their hands. I would not be surprised if cruise is disabled for an open circuit on just one of the two brake switch inputs.
If both brake switches have an open circuit code the cruise control has to be disabled otherwise Harley has a lawsuit on their hands. I would not be surprised if cruise is disabled for an open circuit on just one of the two brake switch inputs.
My bike is a newer Softail, it set C1032 Front WSS Open code.
Now, regarding the Brake Switches and the Cruise I think you are just a little bit wrong.
Here are my arguments:
1.) On all vehicles I know of the Brake Switches have two legitimate states Open (no brake applied) and Closed (when Brake is applied)
2.) On earlier vehicles those switches were not diagnosed at all you had to physically see that the Brake Light does not operate when brake is applied to figure out that the switch has failed.
3.) On many modern vehicles the switches are diagnosed by the ECM and ABS Modules in indirect way:
a. Failed Open if the vehicle is rapidly decelerating and the modules see no brake switch becoming closed
b. Failed Closed if the vehicle is running at monotonous speed or accelerating while the switch appears as closed .Or Brake Switch looks Closed while the gas pedal is applied for longer than several seconds (throttle roll on for bikes).
4.) Brake switches are mechanical devices, they fail all the time. This is why they are not relied upon for any safety-critical function besides turning the Brake Light ON.
5.) To set the Cruise ON both Brake Switches have to be Open anyways. If any one appears Closed you cant set the cruise.
6.) All Cruise Control systems have multiple redundant ways of switching the Cruise OFF; none of the known to me systems relies on the Brake Switches alone.
7.) Harley will bail out of cruise on any of the following circumstances:
a. Brake Switch Closed
b. Twist Grip Roll Off
c. Clutch Pulled IN
d. Vehicle braking (deceleration more than xx miles/ sec, regardless that brake switch may not close)
e. Sudden RPM change
f. Sudden vehicle speed change
g. Gear shifting
h. Internal error of the ECM
i. Any error in bunch of sensors/activators controlled by the ECM (ICM, TPS, TGS, e.t.c)
j. Error in the communication bus
k. Inability to maintain the set speed
l. Lastly and most drastically, vehicle will bail out of cruise if Run switch is briefly turned to Stop or Ign Switch is cycled OFF/ON
As you can see there is lots of redundancy in the Cruise Control. You may want to try suing Harley for failed brake switch if you like, but I cant see you getting more than a buck for it. J)
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 8
From: Detroit, the asshole of America
On production cars if you lose the brake pedal input you lose cruise control, it's more critical for an automatic transmission vs. manual but the principles are the same. I would suggest trying to disconnect both switches, then going for a ride to see if cruise control still works. If it does still work and doesn't deactivate until the clutch is pulled in or the throttle is rolled forward, then it really is a lawsuit waiting to happen and violates many safe practices in terms of vehicle operation and consumer safety. Lawyers would be lining up around the block to take a case where you hit somebody because the cruise control was active and the brake switch didn't cancel it. If you've only lightly used the brakes and it has no idea the brakes were tapped it's going to keep adding throttle to maintain vehicle speed....
BTW, I think you covered it here, but just didn't realize it:
I'll bet a beer the brake switches are under that category.
BTW, I think you covered it here, but just didn't realize it:
Any error in bunch of sensors/activators controlled by the ECM
I'll bet a beer the brake switches are under that category.
Last edited by blusmbl; Dec 22, 2011 at 01:37 PM.