Another oil versus Synthetic question
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,928
Likes: 285
From: Edmond Oklahoma
Even. I would say no advantage either way. I run conventional because it's quieter and cheaper. If your engine isn't noisy, then conventional is only cheaper. I think you would need to stretch that syn drain interval to 8 or 10k to even out the cost. If you change syn at 5k,you are protecting your engine nicely, but you aren't enjoying the (claimed) benefit of extended drains.
Given the exact scenario that you pose, I would run the conventional oil and never give it another thought!
Given the exact scenario that you pose, I would run the conventional oil and never give it another thought!
Beary
Thread Starter
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 28,842
Likes: 16,583
From: Wisconsin, USA
My engine does seem quieter on oil. Although I noticed it getting quieter earlier. I attributed that to carbon build up in the mufflers? I would think I might be losing more hearing than usual, but I definitely hear the stereo better than before.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 38,623
Likes: 6,442
From: Honah Lee
Why Soft 02 's bike was leaking in the case split. He said that little miss-machined area was about .002 which the sealer had opened up since .002 would pour oil if it actually had no sealer. Appear to me since I was in a machine shop for 46 years that either they were going to take a little more off and found that there was not to be taken off and used the casting anyway. However all it would take is an area the cutter left a little chatter or a nick and you have a Harley that is going to leak like you say with certain oils. Also note the poor casting area. (I think but could be a cast pocket for a pry area) Any leak in the upper area is going to run around the break line and migrate out on the black paint and when it does that it's really hard to tell were it's coming from. Be just about impossible to fix short of breaking the whole engine apart.
Last edited by Jackie Paper; Sep 14, 2018 at 10:26 AM.
Tourer
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 263
Likes: 30
From: Canada, Thailand
Clean fresh dino oil every 2500 miles is the way to go in my opinion, I actually change my dino oil every 1500 to 2000 miles, still cheaper than synthetic and you are removing all contaminates and water sooner.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,878
Likes: 17
From: The Desert SouthWest
This is why a long-distance high-milage motor can log several hundred thousand miles and still be in great condition. Versus the "little old ladies" car that goes 3 blocks across town twice a week for 20 years with 15,000 miles on it.
The little old ladies motor will be in worse condition at 15k than the one with 300,000 miles on the open highway.
The conditions it operating under are a huge factor in all this. Those contaminants and moisture build up in the crank-case of grandma's car because it never even gets hot, hence contaminants cause corrosion, etc.
My bike logs 2,000-3,000 miles a month (rarely less than 100 miles every time it leaves the garage). It will run up into the 100's of thousands of miles under these conditions. Under these conditions for MY bike a 5k interval with dino or even 8-10k with full synthetic is no problem.
Granny needs to change oil every 3 months regardless of mileage under the short-trip scenario described above.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,365
Likes: 9
From: Greensboro, NC
Have you had your used oil tested?
Tourer
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 263
Likes: 30
From: Canada, Thailand
No I have never had my oil tested, just going on what I see and how the oil feels. I never had any indication of water in my oil until I ran synthetic for about 5000 miles. As well the oil was very black and looked and felt very thin. My dino oil at 1500 miles was always fairly clean with no evidence of water and it still looked and felt o.k. I believe synthetic can stand up to heat longer and probably higher temperatures as well but I don't think our Harley engines need it, a jet engine or a high performance engine probably would while more frequent oil changes will do fine for our bikes. I have owned Harleys for 40 years and have had good luck with this method.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,751
Likes: 459
From: Here and now
LOL you can't change facts. I sit and wonder why folks can't accept reality, is it personal?
My engine case DID NOT weep with dino oil. My case DID weep when I switched Syn oil. My case QUIT weeping when I switched back to dino. It STARTED weeping again when I went back to Syn oil.
Folks have no problem accepting that syn oil runs cooler, but won't acknowlege the make up of syn oil might also be the cause of weeping. Does that make sense?
The facts are the facts. So it's not a matter of if, but why. My guess is the molecular structure of syn oil is smaller. And maybe the gaskets become brittle in the Oklahoma heat, I don't know. The bike was four years old with around 15000 miles when I switched. Is age a factor, four years old isn't very old. Is 15000 miles a factor? Maybe, but a lot of folks who switched with around that many miles don't have weeping. So maybe not. It is something though because the engine only weeps with synthetic.
Beary
Beary
My engine case DID NOT weep with dino oil. My case DID weep when I switched Syn oil. My case QUIT weeping when I switched back to dino. It STARTED weeping again when I went back to Syn oil.
Folks have no problem accepting that syn oil runs cooler, but won't acknowlege the make up of syn oil might also be the cause of weeping. Does that make sense?
The facts are the facts. So it's not a matter of if, but why. My guess is the molecular structure of syn oil is smaller. And maybe the gaskets become brittle in the Oklahoma heat, I don't know. The bike was four years old with around 15000 miles when I switched. Is age a factor, four years old isn't very old. Is 15000 miles a factor? Maybe, but a lot of folks who switched with around that many miles don't have weeping. So maybe not. It is something though because the engine only weeps with synthetic.
Beary
Beary
Please note that this post is not an endorsement for synthetics as I realize that there is absolutely nothing wrong with running regular oil.
Last edited by dribble; Jul 3, 2013 at 06:20 PM.
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Tourer
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 263
Likes: 30
From: Canada, Thailand
Short trips where the motor doesn't get a chance to run at full operating temperature long enough is what causes moisture and contaminants to build up and break down the oil. A motor needs to run at full temp for approx 20-30 minutes to eliminate these contaminants (the majority of them burn off).
This is why a long-distance high-milage motor can log several hundred thousand miles and still be in great condition. Versus the "little old ladies" car that goes 3 blocks across town twice a week for 20 years with 15,000 miles on it.
The little old ladies motor will be in worse condition at 15k than the one with 300,000 miles on the open highway.
The conditions it operating under are a huge factor in all this. Those contaminants and moisture build up in the crank-case of grandma's car because it never even gets hot, hence contaminants cause corrosion, etc.
My bike logs 2,000-3,000 miles a month (rarely less than 100 miles every time it leaves the garage). It will run up into the 100's of thousands of miles under these conditions. Under these conditions for MY bike a 5k interval with dino or even 8-10k with full synthetic is no problem.
Granny needs to change oil every 3 months regardless of mileage under the short-trip scenario described above.
This is why a long-distance high-milage motor can log several hundred thousand miles and still be in great condition. Versus the "little old ladies" car that goes 3 blocks across town twice a week for 20 years with 15,000 miles on it.
The little old ladies motor will be in worse condition at 15k than the one with 300,000 miles on the open highway.
The conditions it operating under are a huge factor in all this. Those contaminants and moisture build up in the crank-case of grandma's car because it never even gets hot, hence contaminants cause corrosion, etc.
My bike logs 2,000-3,000 miles a month (rarely less than 100 miles every time it leaves the garage). It will run up into the 100's of thousands of miles under these conditions. Under these conditions for MY bike a 5k interval with dino or even 8-10k with full synthetic is no problem.
Granny needs to change oil every 3 months regardless of mileage under the short-trip scenario described above.
Road Master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 1
From: Madison, WI
[quote=jus2anoyu;11475639]On a molecular level, synthetic molecules are all the same size. All very small, which backs up the claims that synthetic flows better and lubricates better due to its uniform small molecular structure.
Conventional oil, due to its 'non man made' composition, it is a crude by product that is refined to the point that it meets sae criteria and is still profitable for the oil company. It's molecular structure varies widely. Large molecules, small molecules and everything in between. 'No two the same' could apply here.
Syn oil is genetically designed to be a clean pure oil. It does not 'cook down' into another state. It's structurally the same from start to finish. It changes very little from the day it's poured in, to the day it's drained out. Only it's contaminants bear a factor in its change. the oil itself remains relatively unchanged.
Conventional oil is PROVEN to change composition during its life. It starts at a specific grade, thins out as its additive package is consumed, and then thickens back up as its service life is stretched beyond its intent. It also contains many components that the oil company cannot afford to remove. These components 'cook out' of the suspension over time thus leaving behind a 'coating' inside your engine. Mind you, this takes a lot of heat cycles and a lot of miles.
Syn has small molecules and no 'by products' to slow an oil leak or seep. Conventional have variable sized molecules and by products that get left behind that can collect at seams and joints to inhibit leaks and seeps.
Perfectly put!
Conventional oil, due to its 'non man made' composition, it is a crude by product that is refined to the point that it meets sae criteria and is still profitable for the oil company. It's molecular structure varies widely. Large molecules, small molecules and everything in between. 'No two the same' could apply here.
Syn oil is genetically designed to be a clean pure oil. It does not 'cook down' into another state. It's structurally the same from start to finish. It changes very little from the day it's poured in, to the day it's drained out. Only it's contaminants bear a factor in its change. the oil itself remains relatively unchanged.
Conventional oil is PROVEN to change composition during its life. It starts at a specific grade, thins out as its additive package is consumed, and then thickens back up as its service life is stretched beyond its intent. It also contains many components that the oil company cannot afford to remove. These components 'cook out' of the suspension over time thus leaving behind a 'coating' inside your engine. Mind you, this takes a lot of heat cycles and a lot of miles.
Syn has small molecules and no 'by products' to slow an oil leak or seep. Conventional have variable sized molecules and by products that get left behind that can collect at seams and joints to inhibit leaks and seeps.
Perfectly put!