09 dyna restart
Tourer
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 348
Likes: 5
From: The mitten state
For years and years many Harleys from Sportsters on up have had a related hot starting problem. The symptoms are that you hit the starter and the engine just gives a loud clunk as though its seized and then you hit the starter a second time and its fine. Speculation is that its a timing issue, with the engine stopping on compression as is intuitive and then when you go to start the engine it needs to overcome the compression and it doesn't make it first time but press the starter again and it does.
One fix for this available on after-market bolt-on ignitions was a 'cranking revs' setting. This introduced a one, two or three revolution delay between the engine being turned over and the ignition being fired. This gets the engine spinning before it fires so overcoming the combination of initial high compression and trying to fire at this point.
I wonder if its this that is causing the symptoms that some people here are getting. Maybe the HD ignition has this built in now to avoid the dreaded clunk and so, when hot, the engine is made to turn over a few times before being fired up? It would also explain the pops some people have had because fuel goes in during the cranking and doesn't get burnt, so when it does fire up this extra fuel gets ignited.
One fix for this available on after-market bolt-on ignitions was a 'cranking revs' setting. This introduced a one, two or three revolution delay between the engine being turned over and the ignition being fired. This gets the engine spinning before it fires so overcoming the combination of initial high compression and trying to fire at this point.
I wonder if its this that is causing the symptoms that some people here are getting. Maybe the HD ignition has this built in now to avoid the dreaded clunk and so, when hot, the engine is made to turn over a few times before being fired up? It would also explain the pops some people have had because fuel goes in during the cranking and doesn't get burnt, so when it does fire up this extra fuel gets ignited.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,745
Likes: 1
From: A house.
For years and years many Harleys from Sportsters on up have had a related hot starting problem. The symptoms are that you hit the starter and the engine just gives a loud clunk as though its seized and then you hit the starter a second time and its fine. Speculation is that its a timing issue, with the engine stopping on compression as is intuitive and then when you go to start the engine it needs to overcome the compression and it doesn't make it first time but press the starter again and it does.
One fix for this available on after-market bolt-on ignitions was a 'cranking revs' setting. This introduced a one, two or three revolution delay between the engine being turned over and the ignition being fired. This gets the engine spinning before it fires so overcoming the combination of initial high compression and trying to fire at this point.
I wonder if its this that is causing the symptoms that some people here are getting. Maybe the HD ignition has this built in now to avoid the dreaded clunk and so, when hot, the engine is made to turn over a few times before being fired up? It would also explain the pops some people have had because fuel goes in during the cranking and doesn't get burnt, so when it does fire up this extra fuel gets ignited.
One fix for this available on after-market bolt-on ignitions was a 'cranking revs' setting. This introduced a one, two or three revolution delay between the engine being turned over and the ignition being fired. This gets the engine spinning before it fires so overcoming the combination of initial high compression and trying to fire at this point.
I wonder if its this that is causing the symptoms that some people here are getting. Maybe the HD ignition has this built in now to avoid the dreaded clunk and so, when hot, the engine is made to turn over a few times before being fired up? It would also explain the pops some people have had because fuel goes in during the cranking and doesn't get burnt, so when it does fire up this extra fuel gets ignited.
Tourer
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 348
Likes: 5
From: The mitten state
"but the simple truth is folks sometimes give the electronics more credit for doing what they're supposed to do than they deserve."
Yes, I know FOLKS like THAT! Of course being a retired lead calibration engineer that used a version of Delphi software, I have a "hint" on how software functions! But I wouldn't want to offend anyone with any facts so I'll refrain from discourgaging any guesses! Cheers
Yes, I know FOLKS like THAT! Of course being a retired lead calibration engineer that used a version of Delphi software, I have a "hint" on how software functions! But I wouldn't want to offend anyone with any facts so I'll refrain from discourgaging any guesses! Cheers
Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,745
Likes: 1
From: A house.
"but the simple truth is folks sometimes give the electronics more credit for doing what they're supposed to do than they deserve."
Yes, I know FOLKS like THAT! Of course being a retired lead calibration engineer that used a version of Delphi software, I have a "hint" on how software functions! But I wouldn't want to offend anyone with any facts so I'll refrain from discourgaging any guesses! Cheers
Yes, I know FOLKS like THAT! Of course being a retired lead calibration engineer that used a version of Delphi software, I have a "hint" on how software functions! But I wouldn't want to offend anyone with any facts so I'll refrain from discourgaging any guesses! Cheers
Last edited by clicker01; Jun 18, 2010 at 02:49 AM.
Tourer
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 348
Likes: 5
From: The mitten state
clicker said "You seem pretty quick to assume your history as a "calibration engineer" somehow makes you an authority. I place 35 years of "real world" hands on experience in mechanical/electronic disciplines well ahead of your credentials."
Great! Please explain how the software calculates and adjusts pulse width to arrive at an A/F ratio? And perhaps you can explain how the ECM synchronizes during start up for fuel and spark delivery?
“...and you misspelled "discouraging" genius.”
Thanks for the spell check. I’m sure a fat finger in typing discouraging completely discredits any knowledge of software and ECM function I may have possessed!
Oh! And as I’ve been retired for a while, I had almost forgotten that a mechanic always know more than those pesky engineers! Thanks for the reminder.
Great! Please explain how the software calculates and adjusts pulse width to arrive at an A/F ratio? And perhaps you can explain how the ECM synchronizes during start up for fuel and spark delivery?
“...and you misspelled "discouraging" genius.”
Thanks for the spell check. I’m sure a fat finger in typing discouraging completely discredits any knowledge of software and ECM function I may have possessed!
Oh! And as I’ve been retired for a while, I had almost forgotten that a mechanic always know more than those pesky engineers! Thanks for the reminder.
Last edited by FBRR; Jun 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM.
Tourer
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 259
Likes: 1
From: I'm on the Central West Coast
How does a simple thread trying to find answers to a problem degenerate into such acrimonious disparaging of people offering their opinions and experience?
You got nothing better to do than stir s#!t?
Look. I rode an FLH shovel head for 20 years and one of the reasons I kept the electric start was for those times when you had to spin the motor a bit when it was hot to get it to fire up. OKay, so hot starting problems are nothing new but the cause of them today are far different from what they were with the old tractors.
The Delphi EFI system is a new experience for me so my way of tackling it is to research and learn as much about it as I can get my mind around.
I don't claim to be an expert but I do know where to find expert opinions from people who are widely respected for what they know.
Even then a glitch in a software program may cause a reliable system to fail at times and hardware like sensors do fail, many times we (the riders) know about a problem long before The Motor Co. knows or acknowledges it and sends the information to the dealers where their techs can know about it. My experience with H-D dealer mechanics is that they only know or will claim knowledge of what the factory say
So I say if you have an opinion about the problem fine but leave your opinion about what someone else say out of it unless you are offering direct rebuttal to what they say.
You got nothing better to do than stir s#!t?
Look. I rode an FLH shovel head for 20 years and one of the reasons I kept the electric start was for those times when you had to spin the motor a bit when it was hot to get it to fire up. OKay, so hot starting problems are nothing new but the cause of them today are far different from what they were with the old tractors.
The Delphi EFI system is a new experience for me so my way of tackling it is to research and learn as much about it as I can get my mind around.
I don't claim to be an expert but I do know where to find expert opinions from people who are widely respected for what they know.
Even then a glitch in a software program may cause a reliable system to fail at times and hardware like sensors do fail, many times we (the riders) know about a problem long before The Motor Co. knows or acknowledges it and sends the information to the dealers where their techs can know about it. My experience with H-D dealer mechanics is that they only know or will claim knowledge of what the factory say
So I say if you have an opinion about the problem fine but leave your opinion about what someone else say out of it unless you are offering direct rebuttal to what they say.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,745
Likes: 1
From: A house.
Originally Posted by FBRR =Great! Please explain how the software calculates and adjusts pulse width to arrive at an A/F ratio? And perhaps you can explain how the ECM synchronizes during start up for fuel and spark delivery?
Oh! And as I’ve been retired for a while, I had almost forgotten that a mechanic always know more than those pesky engineers! Thanks for the reminder.
Oh! And as I’ve been retired for a while, I had almost forgotten that a mechanic always know more than those pesky engineers! Thanks for the reminder.
Last edited by clicker01; Jun 18, 2010 at 01:53 PM.
Mine does the same thing. Just about every time I stop for gas. Sometimes a Loud *** pop and some smoke. Very rare it smokes though, but it sounds horrible. There have been a few threads on this before. All say the same thing, don't wait till the light goes off. I never do anymore when it's hot and it starts every time. Still stupid though that they can't fix it.
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Novice
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Yea it is stupid that they cant fix it. Another thing my bike does that I am not really sure about and may be related is that at WOT it sounds like small gravel or something is being thrown up at the bike I dont know if it is the motor pinging or something does anyone else have that? or know what it is?
Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,745
Likes: 1
From: A house.
Yea it is stupid that they cant fix it. Another thing my bike does that I am not really sure about and may be related is that at WOT it sounds like small gravel or something is being thrown up at the bike I dont know if it is the motor pinging or something does anyone else have that? or know what it is?
