Stage 1 Kit
Road Master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 772
Likes: 101
From: Oxford MI
You really don't need a download or a tuner if all you do is slip ons and a new breather! See below from Nightriders web site:
Do I need to remap my ECM when installing exhaust and air cleaner upgrades to my 07 and later Harley?
NO, you do not have to do anything. You can put the mufflers/air cleaner upgrades and ride the bike without having to worry about the engine
The simple truth is the 07 and later HD's will run just fine with exhaust/air cleaner upgrades and you do not have to do anything to the ECM at all. Closed loop EFI operation uses feedback from the O2 sensor to maintain a constant AFR, even if changes are made to the exhaust and air cleaner.
The amount of information about what has to be done '07 and later Harley when installing exhaust/air cleaner upgrades has been the subject of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). Riders, Dealerships, Parts Suppliers and Aftermarket Shops have presented old-wives tales, bad technical information, mis-information and in some cases, just plain flat lied about the capabilities of the Delphi closed loop ECMs on these bikes.
Most people hold on to their old ideas about what was required for the early EFI ECM's. Shops and Dealerships never bothered to learn new the new technology. Marketing information did nothing to dispel the differences between the old and new bikes. Sales staff did not know the difference or mis-represented what was required on the new bikes.
There is more independent proof that you do not need to remap the HD EFI when installing mufflers. The March 2009 (page 66) CycleWorld dyno tested a set of slip-on mufflers on an '09 FLH, getting 5% more HP and 9% more torque on a "bone-stock, including EFI mapping" bike. Cycle World is not known as a big Harley cheerleader, so it would be a reasonable assumption that they are not going to do any special favors for MOCO.
The CW information is right in line with what HD published in the Fall 2006 Enthusiast Magazine showing a 3% HP and 7% torque increase with slightly more restrictive mufflers and air cleaner kit. American Iron Magazine has also published similar articles about "no remap" upgrades involving exhaust/air cleaner changes.
How much information has to be presented to Harley Riders that remapping of the ECM is not required for exhaust/air cleaner upgrades for closed loop bikes? When it can be shown that much of the "gain" in power for bikes remapped with expensive tuning software and piggyback controllers would have occurred without spending $400-$1000, riders need to start thinking about what they are really trying to accomplish on their bikes rather than blindly following the "you must remap just to add exhaust/ac" advice that has been discredited.
American Iron Magazine routinely presents exhaust/air cleaner upgrades on 2007>later bikes without doing any ECM remap's. As one of the premier H-D magazines, you must assume their technical staff has some knowledge about how the Delphi closed loop ECM works. So you can be fairly sure that when AIM publishes a dyno sheet with improved power and the bike did not have an ECM remap, that the information is accurate.
Do I need to remap my ECM when installing exhaust and air cleaner upgrades to my 07 and later Harley?
NO, you do not have to do anything. You can put the mufflers/air cleaner upgrades and ride the bike without having to worry about the engine
The simple truth is the 07 and later HD's will run just fine with exhaust/air cleaner upgrades and you do not have to do anything to the ECM at all. Closed loop EFI operation uses feedback from the O2 sensor to maintain a constant AFR, even if changes are made to the exhaust and air cleaner.
The amount of information about what has to be done '07 and later Harley when installing exhaust/air cleaner upgrades has been the subject of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). Riders, Dealerships, Parts Suppliers and Aftermarket Shops have presented old-wives tales, bad technical information, mis-information and in some cases, just plain flat lied about the capabilities of the Delphi closed loop ECMs on these bikes.
Most people hold on to their old ideas about what was required for the early EFI ECM's. Shops and Dealerships never bothered to learn new the new technology. Marketing information did nothing to dispel the differences between the old and new bikes. Sales staff did not know the difference or mis-represented what was required on the new bikes.
There is more independent proof that you do not need to remap the HD EFI when installing mufflers. The March 2009 (page 66) CycleWorld dyno tested a set of slip-on mufflers on an '09 FLH, getting 5% more HP and 9% more torque on a "bone-stock, including EFI mapping" bike. Cycle World is not known as a big Harley cheerleader, so it would be a reasonable assumption that they are not going to do any special favors for MOCO.
The CW information is right in line with what HD published in the Fall 2006 Enthusiast Magazine showing a 3% HP and 7% torque increase with slightly more restrictive mufflers and air cleaner kit. American Iron Magazine has also published similar articles about "no remap" upgrades involving exhaust/air cleaner changes.
How much information has to be presented to Harley Riders that remapping of the ECM is not required for exhaust/air cleaner upgrades for closed loop bikes? When it can be shown that much of the "gain" in power for bikes remapped with expensive tuning software and piggyback controllers would have occurred without spending $400-$1000, riders need to start thinking about what they are really trying to accomplish on their bikes rather than blindly following the "you must remap just to add exhaust/ac" advice that has been discredited.
American Iron Magazine routinely presents exhaust/air cleaner upgrades on 2007>later bikes without doing any ECM remap's. As one of the premier H-D magazines, you must assume their technical staff has some knowledge about how the Delphi closed loop ECM works. So you can be fairly sure that when AIM publishes a dyno sheet with improved power and the bike did not have an ECM remap, that the information is accurate.
I have an '09 Superglide Custom. I installed Vance and Hines Straightshot Slip-ons and a Stage One AC. Before I installed the AC (but after the slip-ons) I was getting some decel popping. After the AC the popping decreased yet still exists to some extent. The little popping is more anoying than anything else (yet it would be nice if it didn't exist at all) but the dealer was telling me I need to get the SE tuner and have it dyno'd or I may do the motor damage from it running hot and such. I would really like to know once and for all.
Am I reading your info right in that I need to do nothing? Will it run better and have anymore power if I get it tunned as they suggest?
Thanks...
Ray
Advanced
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
From: canada
" I was cruising the highway and hit 170 kph and shifted to 6th gear" You are one Bitchin rider shifting into 6th around 100 MPH! Hope your roads are good and your guardian bell is working 100%--No wonder Mike can't keep up- he's scared to lose a woman like you and cant keep his mind on his ride! LOL
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,477
Likes: 5
From: New Braunfels, Texas
Ray if you never did any upgrades then it would still be running to lean. My 2011 was so hot when I first bought it new I thought I was going to fry the motor.
So your EFI will adjust out to your upgrades but it will not solve the lean conditions that the bike was built with to satisfy the EPA.
The cheepest fix is to go to nightrider.com and buy the XEID's...5 minute install and your EFI will work the same except the XEID's will trick it into putting out more fuel. The bike will run much cooler ad you will get added performance.
Of course a properly set up tuner might give you more but be ready to spend 300-1000.
So your EFI will adjust out to your upgrades but it will not solve the lean conditions that the bike was built with to satisfy the EPA.
The cheepest fix is to go to nightrider.com and buy the XEID's...5 minute install and your EFI will work the same except the XEID's will trick it into putting out more fuel. The bike will run much cooler ad you will get added performance.
Of course a properly set up tuner might give you more but be ready to spend 300-1000.
Thread Starter
|
Road Captain
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 735
Likes: 23
From: New Brunswick, Canada
You are one Bitchin rider shifting into 6th around 100 MPH! Hope your roads are good and your guardian bell is working 100%--No wonder Mike can't keep up- he's scared to lose a woman like you and cant keep his mind on his ride! LOL
Delta
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Road Master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 772
Likes: 101
From: Oxford MI
Ray if you never did any upgrades then it would still be running to lean. My 2011 was so hot when I first bought it new I thought I was going to fry the motor.
So your EFI will adjust out to your upgrades but it will not solve the lean conditions that the bike was built with to satisfy the EPA.
The cheepest fix is to go to nightrider.com and buy the XEID's...5 minute install and your EFI will work the same except the XEID's will trick it into putting out more fuel. The bike will run much cooler ad you will get added performance.
Of course a properly set up tuner might give you more but be ready to spend 300-1000.
So your EFI will adjust out to your upgrades but it will not solve the lean conditions that the bike was built with to satisfy the EPA.
The cheepest fix is to go to nightrider.com and buy the XEID's...5 minute install and your EFI will work the same except the XEID's will trick it into putting out more fuel. The bike will run much cooler ad you will get added performance.
Of course a properly set up tuner might give you more but be ready to spend 300-1000.
Two things; will riding it before getting it tuned hurt it? (I hope not as I've been riding it plenty without it.) I tend to go the distance (relative to what I'm doing) and would more than likely go with the SE tuner and the dealer dyno (as I don't know much of the indy's in my area). The extra money doesn't bother me too much. I want the bike to run right more than save a few dollars.
Thoughts?
Last edited by ramu3527; Sep 18, 2011 at 05:12 PM.
Road Master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 995
Likes: 2
From: Canada
Fair enough and I will plan to get it tuned.
Two things; will riding it before getting it tuned hurt it? (I hope not as I've been riding it plenty without it.) I tend to go the distance (relative to what I'm doing) and would more than likely go with the SE tuner and the dealer dyno (as I don't know much of the indy's in my area). The extra money doesn't bother me too much. I want the bike to run right more than save a few dollars.
Thoughts?
Two things; will riding it before getting it tuned hurt it? (I hope not as I've been riding it plenty without it.) I tend to go the distance (relative to what I'm doing) and would more than likely go with the SE tuner and the dealer dyno (as I don't know much of the indy's in my area). The extra money doesn't bother me too much. I want the bike to run right more than save a few dollars.
Thoughts?