Could be but I doubt it and I totally agree that 220CCP is to hard on everything, particularly battery and starter. I am thinking even a later intake close, like 56 or so to get CCP just under 200psi and corrected CR about 9.5; still on the high side for me but plenty run there without issues; it's all in the tune.

 

In your opinion what kind of bottom (off idle and around town) would you expect to see from 60's in my configuration?

 

First, my disclaimer. I am not a pro and don't do this for a living; however, I have built a few motors and spend a lot of time researching various configurations for future reference as I do build motors for myself, family and friends. I also attend a local dyno day once a month that is sponsored by one of the best tuners in the country and get to see many different motor configurations where the parts play well together or not.

I honestly can't predict the bottom end of the TW60 in your configuration; so much depends on those SE heads. Most head porters go with 1.9" intake valves and 1.6" exhaust valves but those SE heads have a 1.875" intake and a 1.575" exhaust. The size difference doesn't look like much but does make a difference in flow. Andrews says 2700-6500 is the power band for those cams at 10.5 static but your static is about 11.3 so I am guessing the curve would shift to the left a bit, maybe 2500-6300?? Don't know but I wouldn't expect the TW60s to be great for in town riding; just guessing but not sure.

The problem you have now is that most of the cams with the late intake valve close events, say from 55*-60*, also have lifts that exceed the .585 lift maximum that the CNC heads will accommodate; the Andrews TW60 is an exception to the rule; there may be others but you would have to search. The Lunati 88117e cam has a .601" exhaust lift, so you would have to check exhaust valve springs for coil bind before installing that cam or any cam with valve lift greater than .585". While it may be OK, you should still check.

The other option would be to pull the heads and have them worked, i.e., valves lowered in the pocket, some machining, maybe replace the valves with tuliped pieces, etc., to increase chamber volume to 90cc. Then cam choices start to open up. You could also replace the CNC head heavy valve springs with some lighter beehives that would accommodate cams with higher lifts, say up to .650".

Sorry, not much help but I am putting myself in your shoes and whatever I post are thoughts I would have to consider on moving forward. First thing I would do would be to try another tuner and if that didn't pan out I would probably bite the bullet, pull the heads and have them machined to increase chamber volume to open up my cam choices to achieve your goal of "big torque between 2500-4000rpms as it will be very difficult to achieve that goal with your current configuration and limited cam options. JMHO. When I am setting up a motor I target 9.6 as the max corrected CR and 195psi as the max CCP.

 

Wood Cams offers custom grinds. Just an idea.

585 20 52 252 106
***********36**109
585 60 16 256 112


Max (safe) lift, nice overlap, generous lobe separation and plenty of duration.

Thoughts?

 

My best thinking...............when HD settled on the Stage IV engine kit with that compression 10.5 static and and intake closing @47 (259E cam) they considered the anti-knock to compensate for the ccp and increased cylinder pressure (just me thinking this).

With the above stated IMO 56 closing is pushing into another territory of tuning issues down low. Up top should run like crazy but again IMO 51-53 would relieve some ccp and make the bike easier to tune.

Yes I played with a lot of sticks in mud puddles as a kid :-)

 

I will repeat, I am not a tuner but concentrate on corrected CR and/or CCP when planning a build. The higher those numbers go, the more likely there will be tuning challenges but that's JMHO.

I also think going to a custom ground cam is a extreme approach to solving a problem that most likely has a less extreme cause that we just haven't figured out yet. I think before I paid for a custom ground cam, I would at least stick the 259 back in and see what happens with the catless head pipe. I expect the low end will still leave something to be desired but the information you get from trying the 259 at this point should be useful.

Was the CCP ever checked with another gauge? Doesn't happen often but I have see guys chase CCP issues and finally check with another gauge only to discover that the gauge the have been using was faulty. it would be important for me to know, for sure, what actual CCP was.

Has the tuner tried turning off the anti-knock feature during a tuning session? If CCP is actually 220 and that feature turned off, the motor should ping under load.

 

Kuryakyn makes a couple of late intake close/moderate lift cams worth considering: TC-4G, TC-5G, or TC-26G maybe...

 

I'll recheck ccp & run race fuel @96 octane (for diagnostic purposes)

Bike was tuned with anti-knock OFF and ON (I've lost track)

259's are only 3 degrees + intake closing but do have a much better lobe separation. Going from 43 to 47 isn't going to change much but going from 43 to 52 should.

Too many horror stories guys tell about having their heads reworked and fail. Those SE heads have a lot to be desired but they are reliable.

Just rode bike and tired of slipping and double and triple clutching from the pocket, it also pulled its 2750 stall out of the blue.

 

what tuning device are you using? what you describe is common EFI tuning issue, a lot of stage4's that have only seen dealer dyno tuning have it

and most likely just the addition of fuel, its not going to give you the big TQ but you should get the driveability fixed

 

I'll check those.

TTS tuner. Bike was a dog with Stage IV download but very driveable.

The race gas has been mentioned by several others to see if indeed the ECM is pulling timing.

Bike didn't have these stalling issues with the 259's. Off idle was always tricky but worse now.