Diagnosing sumping
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,779
Likes: 2,609
From: san antonio
Get the motor up to operating temps and remove the crank case drain plug; it is located at the bottom of the right case. It should come out fairly easy and if more than 4-6 ounces drains out, the motor is sumping. When you put the plug back in, do so carefully. It is a tapered pipe plug and, if over tightened, you can crake the case; just be careful and you won't have any problems.
Check the o-ring at the scavenge port; make sure it is the correct o-ring. I have been taking an extra precaution for years now to mitigate sumping by placing a second o-ring behind (installed on the pump first) the scavenge port o-ring. The second o-ring is the one used on the oil pan drain plug. The other cause is poor oil pump alignment and/or oil pump not functioning as it should.
Not saying that this is your problem but what you describe is symptomatic of sumping and you have been in the cam chest, so just thought it worth checking out to eliminate as a contributor to your problem.
Check the o-ring at the scavenge port; make sure it is the correct o-ring. I have been taking an extra precaution for years now to mitigate sumping by placing a second o-ring behind (installed on the pump first) the scavenge port o-ring. The second o-ring is the one used on the oil pan drain plug. The other cause is poor oil pump alignment and/or oil pump not functioning as it should.
Not saying that this is your problem but what you describe is symptomatic of sumping and you have been in the cam chest, so just thought it worth checking out to eliminate as a contributor to your problem.
Last edited by djl; Jun 7, 2015 at 01:17 PM.
Thread Starter
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Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
From: East Tennessee
Get the motor up to operating temps and remove the crank case drain plug; it is located at the bottom of the right case. It should come out fairly easy and if more than 4-6 ounces drains out, the motor is sumping. When you put the plug back in, do so carefully. It is a tapered pipe plug and, if over tightened, you can crake the case; just be careful and you won't have any problems.
Check the o-ring at the scavenge port; make sure it is the correct o-ring. I have been taking an extra precaution for years now to mitigate sumping by placing a second o-ring behind (installed on the pump first) the scavenge port o-ring. The second o-ring is the one used on the oil pan drain plug. The other cause is poor oil pump alignment and/or oil pump not functioning as it should.
Not saying that this is your problem but what you describe is symptomatic of sumping and you have been in the cam chest, so just thought it worth checking out to eliminate as a contributor to your problem.
Check the o-ring at the scavenge port; make sure it is the correct o-ring. I have been taking an extra precaution for years now to mitigate sumping by placing a second o-ring behind (installed on the pump first) the scavenge port o-ring. The second o-ring is the one used on the oil pan drain plug. The other cause is poor oil pump alignment and/or oil pump not functioning as it should.
Not saying that this is your problem but what you describe is symptomatic of sumping and you have been in the cam chest, so just thought it worth checking out to eliminate as a contributor to your problem.
Last edited by SleepyBagger; Jun 7, 2015 at 07:28 PM.
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Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
From: East Tennessee
Just over 2oz oil.
Back to the 220/220 ccp: 10.5 pistons, 888 cams (43 intake closing). Bob Wood himself told me 180 to 200 for those heads, pistons and cams.
I was present when my mechanic first started the bike with the 888's and it required my TTS dongle and his laptop to get the bike to idle and several runs to make it run well enough to take to get tuned. I've had cam changes that popped on deceleration and ran dogged but nothing like this one did.
Crank to cam sprocket off?
Back to the 220/220 ccp: 10.5 pistons, 888 cams (43 intake closing). Bob Wood himself told me 180 to 200 for those heads, pistons and cams.
I was present when my mechanic first started the bike with the 888's and it required my TTS dongle and his laptop to get the bike to idle and several runs to make it run well enough to take to get tuned. I've had cam changes that popped on deceleration and ran dogged but nothing like this one did.
Crank to cam sprocket off?
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,779
Likes: 2,609
From: san antonio
Just over 2oz oil.
Back to the 220/220 ccp: 10.5 pistons, 888 cams (43 intake closing). Bob Wood himself told me 180 to 200 for those heads, pistons and cams.
I was present when my mechanic first started the bike with the 888's and it required my TTS dongle and his laptop to get the bike to idle and several runs to make it run well enough to take to get tuned. I've had cam changes that popped on deceleration and ran dogged but nothing like this one did.
Crank to cam sprocket off?
Back to the 220/220 ccp: 10.5 pistons, 888 cams (43 intake closing). Bob Wood himself told me 180 to 200 for those heads, pistons and cams.
I was present when my mechanic first started the bike with the 888's and it required my TTS dongle and his laptop to get the bike to idle and several runs to make it run well enough to take to get tuned. I've had cam changes that popped on deceleration and ran dogged but nothing like this one did.
Crank to cam sprocket off?
I am not a tuner but would be focusing on the cam set and the capabilities of the tuner.
Thread Starter
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Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
From: East Tennessee
I replied in your other thread. Good to eliminate sumping so you can zero in on the problem. As I said in my other reply, my calculator shows that your 220 CCP is spot on for your configuration. You mentioned CNC heads and I assume those are 16500208 CNC heads that are included in the 103 Stage IV Street and Race kits. TMan 625 cams will produce the same CCP results but those head won't accommodate cams with lifts much greater than .600"; specs say .585" is the limit. I am thinking a cam set with later intake close, like the Andrews TW60 would be a better choice.
I am not a tuner but would be focusing on the cam set and the capabilities of the tuner.
I am not a tuner but would be focusing on the cam set and the capabilities of the tuner.
Maybe my heads and cams are a bad combination in the normal riding range?
What ccp does the SE 259E cam (47 closing) create in that build?
Last edited by SleepyBagger; Jun 8, 2015 at 01:13 PM.
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HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: san antonio
Like I said, I am not a tuner but am thinking that the 220psi CCP, while higher than normal and too high for me, is creating a tuning challenge for the tuner. I certainly could be wrong but that's JMHO.
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Thread Starter
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Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
From: East Tennessee
I have two friends that have installed the SE 103 Stage IV Race kit in their softails. CCP will vary depending on head chamber volume, deck height, head gasket thickness and actual piston dome volume. Both these guys had CCPs about 210psi. Both had dealer tunes and numbers that were not that great but both had major rideability issues like stalling at slow speeds, hard starting and general poor performance in the lower rpm ranges. Once the rpms were up in the 3000rpm range, the motor cam alive. Both solved the problem by getting the bike in the hands of a competent tuner that spent about half a day re-tuning the bikes; one substituted the 259 cams for S&S 585s. When the tuning was done, peak numbers increased slightly but the real difference was performance at partial throttle; night and day. The torque came on pretty early and held a pretty flat curve; I think I have the dyno sheet from the guy that kept the 259 cams; he is over the moon with the way the bike performs. If you want me to look for the dyno chart, let me know and I will see if I can dig it out.
Like I said, I am not a tuner but am thinking that the 220psi CCP, while higher than normal and too high for me, is creating a tuning challenge for the tuner. I certainly could be wrong but that's JMHO.
Like I said, I am not a tuner but am thinking that the 220psi CCP, while higher than normal and too high for me, is creating a tuning challenge for the tuner. I certainly could be wrong but that's JMHO.
Too much ccp is my next to know nothing opinion the smoking gun.
Last edited by SleepyBagger; Jun 8, 2015 at 03:11 PM.