View Poll Results: Which cam for low end torque?
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll
Cam poll: best low to mid torque
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,776
Likes: 2,607
From: san antonio
No disrespect to the FM guy but I have pulled heads and replace head gaskets without disturbing the cylinder base o-ring many times; very easy to do if you know how. Worth the extra time and cost of a head gasket to raise CCP from 188psi to 195psi; the increase in CCP is an increase in TQ. Done along with the cam change that has an earlier intake close than the OEM cam just enhances the compression increase.
I would however disagree that upgrading a stock or Stage 1 motor with a performance cam set will only add 2-3 HP/TQ; have seen more many times.
I would however disagree that upgrading a stock or Stage 1 motor with a performance cam set will only add 2-3 HP/TQ; have seen more many times.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 21,114
Likes: 7,638
From: Poolville
I hope Bob, from Fuel Moto, doesn’t mind me posting his e-mail to me, regarding some questions raised here. Keep in mind, Fuel Moto sells all 3 of these cams that have become my favorites.
“Thanks for reaching out to Fuel Moto. I did look at the Forum and I personally do not agree with some of the ideas. Changing head gasket would not be fruitful based on the cost versus outcome. Going to a .030 gasket would raise your compression by a couple of tenths and would, from my perspective, require removing the cylinder to replace base o-ring. If you are doing the work yourself that is not a huge deal but it is if you are not. Any one of these cams would see some gains with a modest increase in compression, but again I do not feel the gain is worth the cost. If you are chasing every possible tenth of torque there are several things to discuss and the largest being exhaust. These are all good cams and lets be honest here the final outcomes will be slightly different at best. No cam in a "stock" motor can offer ten more hp or tq, we are talking about 2-3 differences. I personally like the torque curves we see with the 222 a bit better since it typically is a broader curve than the others.
I hope this is a help and please get back to me with any questions.
Thank you.........Bob”
“Thanks for reaching out to Fuel Moto. I did look at the Forum and I personally do not agree with some of the ideas. Changing head gasket would not be fruitful based on the cost versus outcome. Going to a .030 gasket would raise your compression by a couple of tenths and would, from my perspective, require removing the cylinder to replace base o-ring. If you are doing the work yourself that is not a huge deal but it is if you are not. Any one of these cams would see some gains with a modest increase in compression, but again I do not feel the gain is worth the cost. If you are chasing every possible tenth of torque there are several things to discuss and the largest being exhaust. These are all good cams and lets be honest here the final outcomes will be slightly different at best. No cam in a "stock" motor can offer ten more hp or tq, we are talking about 2-3 differences. I personally like the torque curves we see with the 222 a bit better since it typically is a broader curve than the others.
I hope this is a help and please get back to me with any questions.
Thank you.........Bob”
Crap, missed that 2-3 pick up in power. Maybe he meant a 2-3 gain in hp/tq from the gasket... Without a doubt a cam swap will make more of a difference in hp/tq than 2-3...
Last edited by 98hotrodfatboy; Dec 21, 2017 at 11:10 AM.
Tourer
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 377
Likes: 74
From: Western New York
I totally agree with Bob, all his points are valid if you're not a mechanic, no knowledgeable in the field. The head gasket is something that isn't worth doing unless you have the ability to do it yourself, therefore the only real out-of-pocket is the hundred-dollar gasket set and a little bit of your time. That's why I've always said if you have the knowledge to do the work yourself it's a nice little bump and it will make that bit of difference if you're trying to get the most you can out of a specific build. I as well prefer the 222 cam, it has a lot more area under the cur
Crap, missed that 2-3 pick up in power. Maybe he meant a 2-3 gain in hp/tq from the gasket... Without a doubt a cam swap will make more of a difference in hp/tq than 2-3...
Crap, missed that 2-3 pick up in power. Maybe he meant a 2-3 gain in hp/tq from the gasket... Without a doubt a cam swap will make more of a difference in hp/tq than 2-3...
Hypothetically, if I were to attempt such a feat, What are the torque specifications for the head/Rocker box bolts? Also, will this minuet difference in gasket size, require adjustments to my adjustable push rods? I do not have a service manual and understand it's importance, But, I'm not sure that my very limited wrenching requirements, justify the cost of one. So, please, if someone could, just answer my question/s. Happy Holidays, regardless!
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,776
Likes: 2,607
From: san antonio
Hypothetically, if I were to attempt such a feat, What are the torque specifications for the head/Rocker box bolts? Also, will this minuet difference in gasket size, require adjustments to my adjustable push rods? I do not have a service manual and understand it's importance, But, I'm not sure that my very limited wrenching requirements, justify the cost of one. So, please, if someone could, just answer my question/s. Happy Holidays, regardless!
Rocker housing bolts torque to 10-14ft-lb. Push rod setting will depend on current preload. If set to .140", readjustment is necessary but if preload is set to .100" no readjustment is necessary. Having said that, I would readjust regardless of current preload because I am an **** retentive SOB.
There are many reasons why one should own the OEM service manual; not just motor work. These are machines and they will break and there are many maintenance items that are clearly instructed in the service manual and will save a DIYer lots of money.
Last edited by djl; Dec 21, 2017 at 03:13 PM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 21,114
Likes: 7,638
From: Poolville
Hypothetically, if I were to attempt such a feat, What are the torque specifications for the head/Rocker box bolts? Also, will this minuet difference in gasket size, require adjustments to my adjustable push rods? I do not have a service manual and understand it's importance, But, I'm not sure that my very limited wrenching requirements, justify the cost of one. So, please, if someone could, just answer my question/s. Happy Holidays, regardless!
Head bolts with MLS head gasket specify 9ft-lb; 14ft-lb; 22ft-lb; 35ft-lb; in sequence and then final torque to 42ft-lb. Service manual says 9ft-lb; 14ft-lb in sequence plus 90* additional. Do not use the service manual instructions with an MLS head gasket.
Rocker housing bolts torque to 10-14ft-lb. Push rod setting will depend on current preload. If set to .140", readjustment is necessary but if preload is set to .100" no readjustment is necessary. Having said that, I would readjust regardless of current preload because I am an **** retentive SOB.
There are many reasons why one should own the OEM service manual; not just motor work. These are machines and they will break and there are many maintenance items that are clearly instructed in the service manual and will save a DIYer lots of money.
Rocker housing bolts torque to 10-14ft-lb. Push rod setting will depend on current preload. If set to .140", readjustment is necessary but if preload is set to .100" no readjustment is necessary. Having said that, I would readjust regardless of current preload because I am an **** retentive SOB.
There are many reasons why one should own the OEM service manual; not just motor work. These are machines and they will break and there are many maintenance items that are clearly instructed in the service manual and will save a DIYer lots of money.
Yeah, I think I'd be too nervous to attempt this without guidance.
Last edited by Bafflingbs; Dec 21, 2017 at 07:20 PM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 21,114
Likes: 7,638
From: Poolville
Not intending any disrespect. I would hate to hear something happened and now your out a motor, that's all...
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HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,776
Likes: 2,607
From: san antonio
None taken. Quite the opposite, in fact. I've never gone into any engine. I've done most of the work on my bike, myself, but, I didn't do the cams. I paid someone to do that. Maybe someday I'll try, but not yet. I lack the knowledge and confidence to do anything like that. Besides, my wife would A.) Kill Me!!!! or B.) Leave me, if I F'd it up
The world would not come to an end even if you did **** up and disturb the cylinder base o-ring; several ways to over come the ****up.
1. Pull the cylinder, replace the o-ring, get a ring compressor and drop the cylinder back down on the piston; it would take all of 30 minutes.
2. I will get shade for this one, clean up the o-ring and the cylinder base to case surfaces, apply some Three Bond 1194 (Yamabond will also work) to the cylinder base and case surfaces, place the o-ring in the groove, drop the cylinder and torque to spec. Again, a 30 minute task. I would go so far to say that if the o-ring appeared damaged, I would remove it and rely on the Three Bond to seal the joint.
I have assembled motors that have had cases opened up for larger cylinders where the case o-ring groove has been removed, no base gasket, only Three Bond to seal the cylinder base to case joint and have not had any seepage from that joint. Not to say that at some point, say after 50K or more miles some seepage might occur, don't know but so far 35K miles on my own all bore 107 (124TQ/110HP) and no seepage.
Not suggesting that you take on a project you are not comfortable taking on, just saying that there are more ways than one to "skin a cat".