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Engine Mechanical TopicsDiscussion for motor builds, cams, head work, stripped bolts and other engine related issues. The good and the bad. If it goes round and around or up and down, post it here.
I have a broken lower exhaust stud on my forward cylinder, and have for a while. I'm not looking forward to the normal procedure of pulling the head. I have the Jim's tool to drill out the stud, but access is blocked by the frame tube.
my question is this. If I disconnect all the motor mounts, including the rear swingarm to frame mounts, (2000 touring model) can I gain the inch or so needed to drill out the broken stud in-situ?
I realize I will probably have to re-align the motor when done, but that's a relative breeze. I also know that taking a head off isn't that hard, but I dont have a clean/secure area to do it, and I'm not paying 500 bucks again to have a shop do what amounts to a couple hours work, and not have my bike for a week.
First off I feel your pain.
You look and the damn thing is right there! But, the down tube is right in the way of getting a good straight shot at the stud. Like you, I looked for every way but the right way to get the stud out. Well, the only way to get to it and do it right is to pull the head.
At this point your only looking for excuses to not do it right. Just find a way and pull the head. You will get the job done right this way and be better off in the long run. Since I had the head off on mine, I went ahead and installed ARP stainless studs on all 4. The rear studs came out ok. Now I can remove all 4 exhaust nuts easily and no more rust!
Many of the "quick fix" tools work well but are designed to be used in the "perfect environment" ... Having turned wrenches for many many years I'd be removing the head and fixing it ( the tried and true way ) before spending the money and time to try and do it the "new and improved" way ... just my two cents worth form a few dollars worth of experience ... Good Luck Scott
First off, my main issue outside is that the complex has a no working on vehicles policy. A torn apart engine on a bike is a bit harder to hide than just closing the hood on a car. Jockeying the motor on loose mounts is unobtrusive enough to get away with, and could potentially be quicker......
second, I've already bought the head gaskets, so upon further inspection will most likely go that route. Its tried and true. I'll bring it over to my mother's house with the garage (where most of my tools are anyways) and do it there. It's just more pain in the *** jockeying vehicles back and forth and dealing with the inevitable family politics when **** doesnt go as planned......
there also seems to be some confusion on the Jim's tool as well. It's a simple thing that bolts into the exhaust port with your good stud and has drill bushings to accurately locate a drill for removing the broken stud. Used it on the rear head in situ (much better clearance) when it broke last year, as I figured if two have broken, I better buy the right tool to do this job. It's not cheap, but cheaper than a jacked up head or continuing shop labor. Ironically the stud I replaced is still fine whereas the shop replaced stud broke again......
as for the recurring stud breakage, I have a feeling that the exhaust itself is faulty, as in bent or otherwise not correctly fitting. In addition to the busted studs, it doesn't fit the lower mount at the trans correctly either. Too bad, as it's a factory piece, not aftermarket Chinese cheap **** as you would have expected. It's getting shitcanned when I replace the stud. I'm getting tired of breaking these damn things.
I am in agreement with the "pull the head and do it right" approach. I recently sold my '02 FLHT so I can't go take a look and mentally walk through the process but I will try to answer the OP's question. Dropping the swing arm basically means removing the rear wheel; belt must be detached, etc., etc. Once the case is detached from the front motor mount, there are still connections, i.e., shift linkage, cables, wiring etc. Additionally, I think the motor would have to be raised so the case cleared the frame so it could be rotated enough to gain the required clearance. IF all goes well to that point, I have my doubts, the motor will not be stable which could make drilling difficult. Even if all of the above is accomplished without any drama, should the drill bit break or Murphy shows up, all that work was for naught. Personally, it's a crap shoot and a chance I would not take.
Nomad Max proposed the right solution. Assuming the heads are stock, hunt Ebay for a used head; they are pretty cheap. I just took a quick look and saw two front heads for sale for $135-$140. Just do the R&R job in the parking lot; done in a couple of hours. The OP could have the bike up and running by now with that solution.
Dropping the swing arm basically means removing the rear wheel; belt must be detached, etc., etc. Once the case is detached from the front motor mount, there are still connections, i.e., shift linkage, cables, wiring etc. Additionally, I think the motor would have to be raised so the case cleared the frame so it could be rotated enough to gain the required clearance. IF all goes well to that point, I have my doubts, the motor will not be stable which could make drilling difficult. Even if all of the above is accomplished without any drama, should the drill bit break or Murphy shows up, all that work was for naught. Personally, it's a crap shoot and a chance I would not take.
ok. That's a bit more than I had envisioned in my head when thinking up this scheme. My procedure would have been
1) remove 2 bolts securing left side rear mount cap to frame (no need to remove cap entirely
2) loosen 2 bolts holding right side rear mount cap to frame
these two should allow enough side to side movement to the right to clear the frame rail, as the movement at this fulcrum point isn't extreme. Could probably get away with not even touching these, but the elastomeric bushings are old, why take a chance.
3) remove two bolts from cylinder heads holding upper motor mount in place. no need to adjust dogbone.
4) remove bolt holding lower front dogbone in place and remove throughbolt from front motor mount.
At this point the powertrain assembly is loose in the frame, and should theoretically have enough movement to gain the inch or so needed to clear the right side front frame rail. I would have used wooden blocks to hold the engine stable in that position for the 15 minutes of drilling, cursing and throwing of tools that would then ensue. all the while the bike is securely on my jack to keep the rear wheel from wagging the dog should this goat rope try to be done on the wheels and sidestand. Clearance would be a little tight, but possibly doable in my mind (at the time I came up with this at least)
I know that by nature mechanics are crafty bastards and will come up with alternate ways to get around challenging issues such as the frame rail in the way of the busted stud without resorting to pulling the head and possibly introducing oil leaks or other issues from cracking open the internals for one damn busted stud I was kind of hoping this was one of those tribal knowledge issues where the accepted procedure is to pull the head (and the job would pay that for flat rate) but you do a couple little tweaks, are done in 1/4 the time with no issues, and on to the next job.
"I know that by nature mechanics are crafty bastards and will come up with alternate ways to get around challenging issues" ... Scott, Obviously you've not been privy ( invited ) to the usual Friday evening grouping of Intellectuals ( mechanics? ) who will sit around the wood burning stove while slurping generous amounts of alcohol in an effort to resolve issues that weren't really issues in the first place ... Trust me, I've been there and it's not all it's cracked up to be :>)
Scott, I think step what happens after Step 2 of your procedure is where the procedure fall apart. There is little to no chance of moving the motor to gain the needed clearance with the swing arm pivot and drive belt in place. Having never tried the procedure but having separated more than on motor from the frame, I just don't see that happening.
I don't understand your concern about "oil leaks and other issues from cracking open the internals". Remove the rocker box covers, rocker support plate and push rods, then the rocker boxes and then the head. If you have the replacement head handy, drop in on with a new gasket and reverse the process taking care not to disturb the cylinder base o-ring; have done it several times. If there was some time between removing and replacing the head, I secure the cylinder to the case with a couple of 1/2" PVC couplings and two head bolts. Have the stud replaced and put the repaired head on Ebay, get your $140 back and you are out a couple of hours of labor, the cost of gaskets and the repair cost and you won't be speaking in tongues and throwing tools around. Like someone earlier posted, there is a reason why your proposed procedure is not common practice.
However, you seem determined to be one of those that likes to swim upstream so I wish you luck with taking on a task that I think is risky. True, mechanics are cratty but they got nothing on Mr. Murphy who shows up at the most inconvenient times.
However, you seem determined to be one of those that likes to swim upstream so I wish you luck with taking on a task that I think is risky. True, mechanics are cratty but they got nothing on Mr. Murphy who shows up at the most inconvenient times.
not so much on this. I already have the gaskets, and had planned on yanking the head to do the stud. At this point, this "new" way is all academic. Ill be pulling the head to do the job as originally planned. This was an exercise in "what if" and it seems to be a no-go. It was really nothing more than an idea cooked up while half asleep and thinking about the job going why wouldnt this work?
As I also stated above, Ill take it over to my mothers garage, and do it in there, as the apartment complex has gotten a bit draconian on doing work in the parking lot, and while I can get it done quick anything that obscures the plate is a NO GO, and will be towed in VERY short order, even covers are pretty much banned at this point, due to a couple of ******** using the parking to store their shitboxes. Wife and I are outta here as soon as the lease is up, but not for about another 8 months or so. not gonna pay these ******** for the privledge of moving out early, ill just keep my nose clean until then and keep my truck and bike out of the impound.
im not too hot on using a new(er) head at this point, as the engine has over 100k on it, and I dont want a "fresher" head exposing other issues in the motor. Its lived together this long, ill pull it off and repair the stud. That is what the original plan was already at least
Well, apologies, I misunderstood and thought you were seriously considering the "new" approach; you are making the right decision. However, you should not be concerned about replacing the head with another and exposing other issues; no different than repairing and replacing your original head. It would be a good idea though to get two 1/2" PVC couplings and secure the cylinders to the case since the head may be off for a day or two. If the cylinder is inadvertently bumped and the base o-ring disturbed, you could have some oil seepage at the cylinder base; won't hurt the motor but could require occasional cleaning from time to time; just a nuisance that can be avoided.
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I was kind of hoping this was one of those tribal knowledge issues where the accepted procedure is to pull the head (and the job would pay that for flat rate) but you do a couple little tweaks, are done in 1/4 the time with no issues, and on to the next job. 
