Hello all,

I'm thinking about upgrading my '06 Deuce (Twin Cam 88) and have a few questions.

First, a quick run down of my plans. I need to check and replace cam chain tensioners/shoes, as a minimum. But, I thought I'd expand the scope a bit, because - well just because. ("motor"/"bike"/"racecar"...!?!)

So, I figured I'd bite the bullet and go for broke. Some things have good reasons, some might be sketchy reasons, and some are just for my experience. (I just want to tinker.)

Chain tensioners - starts the list, (project driver, remember?) - I hear good things about the Zipper's dual piston hydraulic pads.
Big bore kit (S&S) - well, just because. Is it too difficult to pull heads and cylinders leaving the motor in the frame?
Cams - Andrews 26N; I want a torque cam. Will this cam work well with 95-inch displacement, or can I go bigger and keep low-end torque?
(I'm not a wind-it-out type of rider - I like all my vehicles to run with gobs of low end torque. Mostly diesels now....)

Inner cam bearings - typical. (Torrington B148?)
Lifters - S&S; keep good hydraulic valve lift action, and oil to the top end.
New top end breathers; drilling out that oil return hole. (need to find a layout/diagram showing exactly which hole it is?)
Going to buy a set of Rock-Outs while I'm in it. Just to make sure everything is as quiet as possible.
Exhaust - Bassani Road Rage; 2-to-1, O2 sensors, keeps my wife's boot heel from melting over the slip-on. (rear peg between mufflers)

Plate/oil pump - want a better pump, reliable oil flow, no pressure fall off at idle. Plus, I have the softail, balanced B-motor - more reasons for the reliability and high flow. Not sure I need a billet plate, but seems the better pumps work with those - S&S, Fueling, SE, etc. However, I note that Andrews catalog states their 'conversion' cams won't work with the Screaming Eagle plate. Is that true for all the billet plates? Why would the conversion cams work with an OEM plate, and not the SE plate?

I think I could get a H-D OEM plate, and buy the Screaming Eagle pump - would that work? Should I put in a Baisley oil bypass spring? Or the Axtell bypass valve? What would be the difference in using an replacement spring (higher pressure?) and a replacement valve like the Axtell? If I use a billet plate, should I get a replacement bypass valve or spring?

Related to the cam plate - how do I determine if I need to block off one of the gallery ports in the plate? (or is that just for 1999 engines?) Also, how do I ensure that the plate I get has the passage needed for my B-motor balancer oil feed?

For cam plate and pump - do I just buy a plate/pump combo for 2007-2010 softails? (And I presume plates for those model years will fit the Andrews conversion cam outer journals?)

For tuning, I'm thinking the Thundermax might be a good option. But I'm wondering if there are any issues that Thundermax might have with control of the rest of the bike's electronics. Are there any issues with things other than engine control which the Thundermax replacement ECU might not provide?

Other recommendations for a tuner? Power Vision?

I didn't list basic stuff, like intake, pushrods, gaskets, etc. Plus, the cam chains, o-rings, sprockets, spacers, retaining clips, - more stuff. I'm going to try and make a detailed list of these, but lots of items are included with parts kits - so I figure I'll end up with a few duplicates, of gaskets at least.

I realize there are several approaches to a project like this - and the cam and support plate combination sort of determine each other's specification, from the inherent inter-relation of the two. So, I haven't nearly begun to develop a detailed parts list. That's the main reason for my post - to get whatever suggestions I can from HD Forums before deciding on my final route to the destination.

Thanks for any thoughts and answers you can provide, and thanks for reading through this!

Best,
John

 

Heads and cylinders are routinely removed with engine in frame

i suggest skipping the big bore “kit”

Send your cores to a reputable builder for head work and boring / fitment of the piston that optimizes compression for the cam they recommend for your torque goals

Remember, these builders are not starting from a clean sheet of paper, they know what combinations give what results

 

Get the Bailey spring, the lighter of the two, beleave it is a LM2 or something like that. I just bought a 06 up camplate to do the conversion. What I found on this used plate was a casting pit right where the bypass valve sets, so I took a drill by hand and twisted just a bit till it was smooth. Then lapped the valve in it. Nothing wrong with the after market complete and pumps and sticking with a old type cam, just pricey.

I agree with sending out your heads and jugs if they look good still.

It sounds like you have put a lot of thought into this build. Have fun.

Yes to the 1999 question

 

Thanks, 88.

Most of the "kits" I see listed are complete with pistons, but they're available with selection of compression ratio desired. I don't really have a good idea of what compression ratio is best for my goal, other than I know it should not be too high for good street-ability. (is that a word?) 9.5 to 1 seem like a good target?

I did make a quick search for "engine builders". It appears that most of them will sell kits, including cylinders, pistons, and heads, targeted for a certain performance level. Do the "kit" retailers not match their bored cylinders with the selected pistons included?

I did not consider head work - thought the stock heads would provide a suitable performance for the increased displacement. However, if I'm pulling the heads to get cylinders off, it makes sense to at least treat them to a valve job. How much performance gain is realized with head work, compared with just the gains achieved with the larger displacement?

I suppose the engine builders can "pair" all of the segments of the build, to optimize gains with my cam selection, like you said. Do they generally perform work on the exchanged cores, or is it just a ship and swap type of purchase?

Got a recommended builder? Who's in the southeast US?

Thanks,
John

 

Thanks, xcbullet.

I also see that Baisley has a machined relief valve piston for the oil bypass. That should work well in a billet cam plate, no?

Best,
John

 

The spring is all thats needed

 

There are two builders that frequent this forum; Hillside Cycles/Scott and VeeTwin Performance/Kirby. Hillside is in New York and VeeTwin in Florida. Both offer a variety of build configurations around the customers requirements. I believe both will work with customers on an exchange basis charging the customer a core charge which is refunded when they receive the customers cylinders/heads in good condition which minimizes down time and provides the customer with appropriate packaging to return cylinders/heads for the core charge refund. I suggest that you "Google" both, chat them up and decide which you prefer to work with and let them help you flesh out a build plan based on your riding style.

A couple of thoughts of the top of my head:

• Aftermarket BB kits do not match pistons to cylinders. I know many are sold but using one of the two above referenced builders will insure a true bore and proper piston fitment.
• If budget allows, at least a "street" or Stage ! porting job is well worth the cost. The '06 heads flow better than previous years but can be improved with porting. Both builders offer basic street porting as well as enhanced head porting packages but at least a street port should be part of the build plan IMHO.
• The OEM cam plate and oil pump is more than adequate for most builds. I ran the OEM plate pump on my last 95" build for 25K miles and gear driven cams with no issues.
• Speaking of gear driven cams, if given a choice between cam plate/pump upgrade or gear driven cams, gear driven cams is the way to go IMHO.
• Scott and Kirby may not agree with my all my bullet points but they will agree that the bore should be to 98", not 95". My '05 Deuce was 95' but is no 98"; night vs day difference.
• I am not a Thundermax fan. The Power Vision system is the most popular fuel management system being used by most tuners today. Many tuners are selling "licenses" so the customer doesn't have to buy the system which saves the customer; the savings will depend on what the tuner charges for the license.
• The Andrews 26 cam is a good cam but there are better choices; which ever builder you choose can help select a cam that plays well with the other components; very important to get this right.
• Whichever of these two you select can guide you on the purchase of ancillary parts and may be able to purchase them for you and include them in the "kit".
• You should get the service manual for your bike and figure out what "special" tools you will need or how to work around them.

Good luck with the project.

 

Thanks djl,

I have recalled both Scott and Kirby posting in the forum - I will likely contact Kirby at Vee Twin Performance when I'm ready to start tear down.

My thoughts were initially that I would procure parts beforehand, and thus set my direction before disassembly. Counting on my typical luck, I figured I'd encounter too much runout for gear drive, and so I'd resigned myself to chain drive cams. Maybe I should rethink that approach - I can tear down and check runout before committing and shipping cores.

I've read that 98" is the displacement to shoot for - kind of surprised that 3" displacement change would make that much difference. Is it because the compression acts upon an increased bore size, thus increasing torque that much more? This is a hard thing for my mind to grasp - my thoughts are not mechanically aligned, although I do try to follow the math/science.

Exact cam choice is not a detail I'm fixed on, other than I'd thought the conversion style would be where I'd end up, given my model year and the tensioner issue. Perhaps I'll leave this to Kirby's expertise, and trust his judgement for a "torque" cam.

I'm open to use of stock HD cam plate, although I do want to ensure reliable oil flow. Bypass valve optimization will do all I need? Use the Screaming Eagle oil pump?

My reasoning for Thundermax was because it can use wide-band O2 sensors. The Bassani Road Rage system comes with the wide-band bungs already welded. I do feel that Road Rage is likely one of my better choices - not looking for noise, I like the 2-into-1 design, and I do want to get the exhaust below passenger pegs. Are O2 sensors not a viable choice for optimum tuning?

Have the service manual. Checking out the tools now.

Appreciate the responses,
John

 

See below.

 

Thanks again, djl - I'm much obliged for your thoughts.
I've expounded as well - in RED - on your previous comments below.

I've had another builder recommended that is very close to me - Kevin Baxter, Pro Twin Performance, in Winder, GA. He seems to have a large YouTube presence - I've watched several of his presentations, knowledge seems impressive. I'm going to follow his video series and ask for recommendations.

Thanks to all,
John