When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Engine Mechanical TopicsDiscussion for motor builds, cams, head work, stripped bolts and other engine related issues. The good and the bad. If it goes round and around or up and down, post it here.
0.003 - 0.004 interference. Heat the cylinder to 400F and cool the cylinders. They drop in. Located by a lip at the top of the sleeve with it about 0.002 to 0.005 proud. Surface the top.
I'll show the process. We'll see if I screw it up.
Last edited by Max Headflow; Aug 15, 2021 at 09:12 AM.
Early pistons, rings and clips had a combined weight of 1200 grams stock for 2. The Wiseco look to be about 1100 grams. Later TCs 4 3/8 stroke were balanced somewhere at 1035 grams according to SnS. When I rebuilt my 131, the pistons were that weight or close..
Don was a great help setting me up with the guy at Advanced sleeve. He told me that MTC used short sleeves which he didn't like but I wonder if MTC uses Advanced Sleeve and because your order was for a 4 inch stroke, that was all that was needed. Advanced also makes long sleeves for 124s.. I went short as I don't have to worry about aligning the sleeves when I drop them in.. On a 4 inch stroke that is all that is needed.
Did the sleeved cylinders that slipped on you have a lip at the top of the sleeve or were they straight sleeves? The advance sleeves are lipped. IMO they have to be. For 1 the straight sleeve would make up about 1/2 the gasket surface width near the cylinder stud holes. With a sleeve that has a lip, it's like 95%.
We'll see if I screw this up.
Max,
I know I answered your question about lip or straight via a PM but now that I know Dorfman pointed you to Advanced Sleeve, I am wondering if he sent my cylinders to Advanced Sleeve for re-sleeving?? If he did, the sleeve that slipped may have had a lip. I have thought about this since we exchanged PMs and I do remember that after the re-sleeving, I was concerned about the fitment at the oil return dowel on the front cylinder and the sleeve being so close to the cylinder stud bore; just wasn't right. See the attached photo and perhaps you can determine from the photo whether or not the sleeve had a lip or not. I talked to Don about this, sent him the photo but since there was really nothing to be done, I put the motor together with little confidence that the problem was solved because it just wasn't right. Sure enough, that is the sleeve that slipped. Fortunately, Don is a stand up guy and made it right. The MTC pistons that came with the cylinders were too light and the motor had a nasty vibration and was unrideable. Had the original JE pistons from Axtell miked and they were a bit scuffed but still within spec and service limits and fit the MTC cylinders on the upper limit for forged cylinders so I ran them as Hoban had balance the crank to those pistons. Piston rattled a bit on cold startups but the motor was a runner (124TQ/110HP) quiet and smooth.
How are you inspecting the large end bearings of the crank after a crash like that?
Is your lathe considered a Gunsmith model? I have a 16" one I purchased on Amazon that looks just like it? Mine's 3 phase since I already had a motor generator but that was just the opinion I took since my vertical mill only had that option.
Wish now I had got it 240 2 phase now however since one does not need a lot of power on a lathe. My power company will not provide 3 phase in my residential neighborhood
Max,
I know I answered your question about lip or straight via a PM but now that I know Dorfman pointed you to Advanced Sleeve, I am wondering if he sent my cylinders to Advanced Sleeve for re-sleeving?? If he did, the sleeve that slipped may have had a lip. I have thought about this since we exchanged PMs and I do remember that after the re-sleeving, I was concerned about the fitment at the oil return dowel on the front cylinder and the sleeve being so close to the cylinder stud bore; just wasn't right. See the attached photo and perhaps you can determine from the photo whether or not the sleeve had a lip or not. I talked to Don about this, sent him the photo but since there was really nothing to be done, I put the motor together with little confidence that the problem was solved because it just wasn't right. Sure enough, that is the sleeve that slipped. Fortunately, Don is a stand up guy and made it right. The MTC pistons that came with the cylinders were too light and the motor had a nasty vibration and was unrideable. Had the original JE pistons from Axtell miked and they were a bit scuffed but still within spec and service limits and fit the MTC cylinders on the upper limit for forged cylinders so I ran them as Hoban had balance the crank to those pistons. Piston rattled a bit on cold startups but the motor was a runner (124TQ/110HP) quiet and smooth.
I assume that's the picture of the sleeve that slipped. It actually looks like it was assembled wrong. Couple of issues and stuff that is OK.
1. It looks like a stepped sleeve that wasn't installed right.
2. The OD of the ring on the stepped sleeve will put you right at the dowel pin. No getting around it. The OD is 4.400 inches and the sleeve is 4.300. That's the balance between having a lip and sleeve thickness for a 4 1/8 bore. You get a 0.050 step for the sleeve to sit on. When the cylinder is bored to size, the sleeve is only 0.087 thick.
3. I would assume that the re-sleeve was the same sleeve. I don't know who it went to but Advanced likely heated the cylinder until it dropped out, trimmed a little off the top of the cylinder, installed the new one then trimmed one more time so it was flat.
4. Why did the first sleeve drop? Couple thing. The guy may have tried to match the step to the cylinder and missed which means the sleeve was low to start. It kind of looks that way. It also looks like the top of the sleeve wasn't cut which means the top of the cylinder wasn't trimmed after install.
5. If the cylinder was trimmed and the cylinder slipped. it's possible that when the step cut was made that the tool left a radius at the bottom of the step. This kept the sleeve from seating correctly when installed. The tool has to be sharp and IMO it's worth while to cut into the slightest bit of the dimeter to ensure that the radius is out of the way.
How are you inspecting the large end bearings of the crank after a crash like that?
Is your lathe considered a Gunsmith model? I have a 16" one I purchased on Amazon that looks just like it? Mine's 3 phase since I already had a motor generator but that was just the opinion I took since my vertical mill only had that option.
Wish now I had got it 240 2 phase now however since one does not need a lot of power on a lathe. My power company will not provide 3 phase in my residential neighborhood
Don't need to. New used clean cases with new bearings, good used clean crank. or should it be?
Not sure I'd call lathe a gunsmith model. It's still considered a benchtop tho it sits on a cabinet style lower.. It's a 13 x 40 Enco Chinese lathe with a 1 1/2 hp Baldor single phase 220v motor. Got it during one of the year ends sales 18-20 years ago. IIRC the whole thing only weights 1100-1200 lbs. A heavy 13 inch would likely weight twice that or more.
Don't need to. New used clean cases with new bearings, good used clean crank. or should it be?
Not sure I'd call lathe a gunsmith model. It's still considered a benchtop tho it sits on a cabinet style lower.. It's a 13 x 40 Enco Chinese lathe with a 1 1/2 hp Baldor single phase 220v motor. Got it during one of the year ends sales 18-20 years ago. IIRC the whole thing only weights 1100-1200 lbs. A heavy 13 inch would likely weight twice that or more.
My bad..I missed that it was a different crank. Just assumed you were inspecting the old bumped one. Been a few weeks and was thinking piston broke... Went back to review other post
Last edited by Jackie Paper; Aug 15, 2021 at 03:58 PM.
I assume that's the picture of the sleeve that slipped. It actually looks like it was assembled wrong. Couple of issues and stuff that is OK.
1. It looks like a stepped sleeve that wasn't installed right.
2. The OD of the ring on the stepped sleeve will put you right at the dowel pin. No getting around it. The OD is 4.400 inches and the sleeve is 4.300. That's the balance between having a lip and sleeve thickness for a 4 1/8 bore. You get a 0.050 step for the sleeve to sit on. When the cylinder is bored to size, the sleeve is only 0.087 thick.
3. I would assume that the re-sleeve was the same sleeve. I don't know who it went to but Advanced likely heated the cylinder until it dropped out, trimmed a little off the top of the cylinder, installed the new one then trimmed one more time so it was flat.
4. Why did the first sleeve drop? Couple thing. The guy may have tried to match the step to the cylinder and missed which means the sleeve was low to start. It kind of looks that way. It also looks like the top of the sleeve wasn't cut which means the top of the cylinder wasn't trimmed after install.
5. If the cylinder was trimmed and the cylinder slipped. it's possible that when the step cut was made that the tool left a radius at the bottom of the step. This kept the sleeve from seating correctly when installed. The tool has to be sharp and IMO it's worth while to cut into the slightest bit of the dimeter to ensure that the radius is out of the way.
All above my pay grade but thanks for the information. I just had a bad feeling from the looks of the finished product. Even the uneducated can take a look at something and know that something isn't quite right. I assume Dorfman saw the finished product but it may have been drop shipped direct to me on completion. All moot now but after digging around in my archived stuff, I found the photo and thought it might definitively answer your question about lipped or straight sleeve.
The boring of the cylinder has been a bit of a fiasco.
Fist setup for boring the SnS cylinder and making sure that the surface is flat.
Boring the cylinder.
With the bore close to finished size, there was sill vertical parts of the cast iron in the cylinder. Could have been fine if they were imbedded securely but many fell out..
Trying stock TC cylinders next.
Stock cylinder weren't flat on the bottom so cut them flat.
Bored them but this stuff is gummy.
Ended up with only 0.002 interference and surface wasn't smooth from honing.. Part of it was from trying to remove only 0.004" It was too little and the insert dug in leaving grooves. .
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles
Slideshow: The bar-and-shield logo shows up on far more than motorcycles, some of the company's most unexpected products have nothing to do with riding.
Slideshow: From the troubled AMF years to modern misfires, these bikes earned reputations for reliability issues, questionable engineering, or disappointing performance.
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Slideshow: The Swiss custom shop has taken a Harley Softail and stretched it into something so long and low that it looks closer to a rolling sculpture than a conventional motorcycle.
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Slideshow: A standard cruiser becomes an intricate metal canvas in the hands of a Swiss custom house known for pushing Harley-Davidson platforms far beyond their factory brief.
Slideshow: Harley-Davidson's challenges aren't abstract; they show up in dropping shipments, shrinking dealer traffic, and strategic decisions that aren't yet translating into growth.
..
or should it be? 
