Not another cam thread😃
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,185
Likes: 2,134
From: W. Texas
When I bought my EVO I knew it needed some work. Didn't realize how much but I'm happy with it now. During all the work chancing a vibration I thought of getting rid of it a few times. In shopping and test riding what evo's I could find (bout 5-6 of them) none performed as well the one I had. So I kept working on it and finally got it fixed. Lost a head gasket in midst of it. Tore it down and decided to ck the cam and bearings, didn't know the bikes past repairs or upgrades. was pleasantly surprised to find the heads had had some work on them and an EV13 Cam. I like the low end and it will run 75-80 all days and still pass other vehicles when needed. I don't ride real hard anymore, it does well for me. I bet the EV23 can do ya well also.
Let us know how it goes WP
Let us know how it goes WP
Ah. Makes sense. Thanks!
Banned
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 678
Likes: 1
From: LA
Properly?
Set the squish while you are at it ... it's a cheap mod to just trim cylinders a little. Don't know what your local rates are. Should not cost more than $50 ... may be as lower (last time I paid 35).
It'll take less time to do than trying to get all of the old paper gasket off. Use a .010" metal gasket on the way back together.
H-D stock squishes are as slack as a dockside ho's gusset. You'll have to measure it but I'd guess no more than 10 thou.
... A 2c that's not been thrown on the table yet.
I am not sure if it is just that the Evo is a *very* old engine, these cams so modest, they are bored/unimpressed by them and moved on, but I find their tech support pretty uninspiring ... and that folks here will give you many times more useful and beneficial advice.
I've worked in the bike industry in various positions and if I held that position I'd include collating other people's experiences/dyno sheets as part of my job until I could make pretty damned canonical statements/predictions about performance. Truth is, I have found Andrews pretty unhelpful to the point of insulting.
BTW, how does Nightrider come up with their "maximum horsepower" equation on cam? Are those technical limitations, or just experience? For example, if you take a cam and throw in some high lifters, coat pistons and valves, do anyone one of number of tweaks they don't, surely it's going to make differences?
I just wondered ... for example, they pitch an EV27 at 75hp ... but I know folk get more than that out it. Is that just stock, no other mods?
Set the squish while you are at it ... it's a cheap mod to just trim cylinders a little. Don't know what your local rates are. Should not cost more than $50 ... may be as lower (last time I paid 35).
It'll take less time to do than trying to get all of the old paper gasket off. Use a .010" metal gasket on the way back together.
H-D stock squishes are as slack as a dockside ho's gusset. You'll have to measure it but I'd guess no more than 10 thou.
... A 2c that's not been thrown on the table yet.
I am not sure if it is just that the Evo is a *very* old engine, these cams so modest, they are bored/unimpressed by them and moved on, but I find their tech support pretty uninspiring ... and that folks here will give you many times more useful and beneficial advice.
I've worked in the bike industry in various positions and if I held that position I'd include collating other people's experiences/dyno sheets as part of my job until I could make pretty damned canonical statements/predictions about performance. Truth is, I have found Andrews pretty unhelpful to the point of insulting.
BTW, how does Nightrider come up with their "maximum horsepower" equation on cam? Are those technical limitations, or just experience? For example, if you take a cam and throw in some high lifters, coat pistons and valves, do anyone one of number of tweaks they don't, surely it's going to make differences?
I just wondered ... for example, they pitch an EV27 at 75hp ... but I know folk get more than that out it. Is that just stock, no other mods?
Last edited by Dun Roamin; Nov 14, 2014 at 12:54 AM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 12,878
Likes: 5,449
From: la la land jerzey
BTW, how does Nightrider come up with their "maximum horsepower" equation on cam? Are those technical limitations, or just experience? For example, if you take a cam and throw in some high lifters, coat pistons and valves, do anyone one of number of tweaks they don't, surely it's going to make differences?
I just wondered ... for example, they pitch an EV27 at 75hp ... but I know folk get more than that out it. Is that just stock, no other mods?[/QUOTE]
AS you know - you stated you have done Dyno plots -- a customer of a bo teak shop that did a spin on a bike they were ( involved in,) will always have a very lively sheet showing numbers that in the real world do not happen
on the other hand if you had the work done someplace else and go to them your dyno sheet will reflect a lot less power and to them show you were taken advantage of - ( and i am talking about the exact same motor )
BUT you are correct john the owner at andrews designs are at best a very safe bet for no issues install but lack in real power, and will give a customer who has never ridden a real motor in a bike a feeling of perfiormance -- AGAIN a BUT -- its a bolt in and they do work and do the job most if not all with a day cruser - are looking for - more low end power and mid range - 75 HP from an EV 27 is a streach even for a real shop to get from it - not enough duration and we are talking about AIR PUMPS
pick on me if you need to but one of the regulators well thats not fair
I just wondered ... for example, they pitch an EV27 at 75hp ... but I know folk get more than that out it. Is that just stock, no other mods?[/QUOTE]
AS you know - you stated you have done Dyno plots -- a customer of a bo teak shop that did a spin on a bike they were ( involved in,) will always have a very lively sheet showing numbers that in the real world do not happen
on the other hand if you had the work done someplace else and go to them your dyno sheet will reflect a lot less power and to them show you were taken advantage of - ( and i am talking about the exact same motor )
BUT you are correct john the owner at andrews designs are at best a very safe bet for no issues install but lack in real power, and will give a customer who has never ridden a real motor in a bike a feeling of perfiormance -- AGAIN a BUT -- its a bolt in and they do work and do the job most if not all with a day cruser - are looking for - more low end power and mid range - 75 HP from an EV 27 is a streach even for a real shop to get from it - not enough duration and we are talking about AIR PUMPS
pick on me if you need to but one of the regulators well thats not fair
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,721
Likes: 243
From: NC
Gentlemen, I'll use that term loosely in here, I have been reading several threads on cam upgrades for a stock evo engines and have some questions.
From what I have been reading and knowing how I ride it sounds like an EV23 cam is what I want. Better with low end torque, good mid range, top end cruising 75-80mph.
What I found is a lot of good information on carbureted engines, I have a '96 EFI Road King and want to keep it stock for now, just upgrade the cam for a little better performance if that is possible.
How will making a small adjustment in the cam effect the way the stock EFI system performs?
I know the '96 is the first year M&M system and there is not a way to really tweak the system without upgrading to a '98 M&M system.
Thanks for the help.
I don't mean to hijack this thread. If I need to I'll start a new one, but then there will be another cam thread.
From what I have been reading and knowing how I ride it sounds like an EV23 cam is what I want. Better with low end torque, good mid range, top end cruising 75-80mph.
What I found is a lot of good information on carbureted engines, I have a '96 EFI Road King and want to keep it stock for now, just upgrade the cam for a little better performance if that is possible.
How will making a small adjustment in the cam effect the way the stock EFI system performs?
I know the '96 is the first year M&M system and there is not a way to really tweak the system without upgrading to a '98 M&M system.
Thanks for the help.
I don't mean to hijack this thread. If I need to I'll start a new one, but then there will be another cam thread.
Banned
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 678
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From: LA
Hey, johnjzjz ...
No, I am not a dyno guy and, no, I am not picking on you ... is Nightrider your site?
I'm just wondering what the figures mean, e.g. is 75 hp the maximum you have managed to squeeze out of that cam under any circumstances? I was sure if it meant "stock + cam" or something else.
I like the Nightrider site. Lot of upfront information. A lot of work. I appreciate straightforward honesty. There's too much big talk and snake oil in this world.
Safe is actually sensible for a large part of the market - which is something I always remember when folks start to talk about "most HP" etc. No point selling something crazy that needs attention setting up when folks have got attention - don't want to add a couple of hours on a dyno to their costs - and then ending up with the blow back from their mistakes. Something I've seen in other departments where folk push things too far. Folks are quick to blame others when they break things.
Perhaps that is why Andrews are a little cagey ... they don't want to admit that. It's actually sensible - a peaky ride is not great for most people, most of the time - but it's not what many buyers want to hear. They want to hear "most", "biggest", "greatest".
What's your best recommendation for a radical early cam and set up?
No, I am not a dyno guy and, no, I am not picking on you ... is Nightrider your site?
I'm just wondering what the figures mean, e.g. is 75 hp the maximum you have managed to squeeze out of that cam under any circumstances? I was sure if it meant "stock + cam" or something else.
I like the Nightrider site. Lot of upfront information. A lot of work. I appreciate straightforward honesty. There's too much big talk and snake oil in this world.
Safe is actually sensible for a large part of the market - which is something I always remember when folks start to talk about "most HP" etc. No point selling something crazy that needs attention setting up when folks have got attention - don't want to add a couple of hours on a dyno to their costs - and then ending up with the blow back from their mistakes. Something I've seen in other departments where folk push things too far. Folks are quick to blame others when they break things.
Perhaps that is why Andrews are a little cagey ... they don't want to admit that. It's actually sensible - a peaky ride is not great for most people, most of the time - but it's not what many buyers want to hear. They want to hear "most", "biggest", "greatest".
What's your best recommendation for a radical early cam and set up?
Last edited by Dun Roamin; Nov 14, 2014 at 10:14 AM.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,590
Likes: 444
From: Ohio
You only need to upgrade the computer to '97-'98, then something like a Power Commander III will make it possible to compensate for any changes like a cam, which should be complimented with a high flow air breather and better flowing pipes. Air pump, easy in, easy out.
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 12,878
Likes: 5,449
From: la la land jerzey
What's your best recommendation for a radical early cam and set up?
my shop we ended with the EVO - i do not work on the twinkies - i have been around for a while and done all kinds of things
i like the 89 inch evo kit we lighten the top and bottom end parts even more and run a 9.8 to one compression - the heads get backcutting to take advantage of the exhausts negative wave - conical B hive springs - light weight coated valves -reed breather - mikuni 42MM - ultima ignition now that crane is gone - china crane is not what i want - cam choice crane 310 2 B - .550 lift with a rocker ratio change we run it heads up in timing - my FLST i put together with avon cobras and i am 260 will out run your avarage jap 4 cyllinder to 100 MPH from a traffic light - i will add i raced ironheads in pro gas all through the 80s into the mid 90s - so hitting it is not a thing for me -
its all about the speed of torque not how much HP you can muster
my shop we ended with the EVO - i do not work on the twinkies - i have been around for a while and done all kinds of things
i like the 89 inch evo kit we lighten the top and bottom end parts even more and run a 9.8 to one compression - the heads get backcutting to take advantage of the exhausts negative wave - conical B hive springs - light weight coated valves -reed breather - mikuni 42MM - ultima ignition now that crane is gone - china crane is not what i want - cam choice crane 310 2 B - .550 lift with a rocker ratio change we run it heads up in timing - my FLST i put together with avon cobras and i am 260 will out run your avarage jap 4 cyllinder to 100 MPH from a traffic light - i will add i raced ironheads in pro gas all through the 80s into the mid 90s - so hitting it is not a thing for me -
its all about the speed of torque not how much HP you can muster
Banned
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 678
Likes: 1
From: LA
There's the words ... the motor company should use it as their motto (rather than just, embarrassedly, not advertise their hp).
Putting it in perspective, Ducati's new Panigale 1299 may have 205-horsepower but still has 106.7 lb.ft (at 8,750 rpm - 80+ from about 4,000). See animated "exploded diagram", here.
There are times I feel like a caveman refining my club, evolution having passed me by like one of those rainforest tribes. Don't get me wrong, I like my club, may be there'll be a day when clubs come back into fashion, but like the tribesmen sometimes I do wonder what those strange birds are flying so high above my head and whether one of those metaphorical high powered, composite bows just might make hunting easier.
Still, there's no where to carry beer and groceries on a Panigale ...
I went a similar way with an EV23, high lifters (@.530" ish), valves and porting, and a SE ignition unit but it was just a low budget strap together of cheap old available parts for a runaround. Budget and lack of effort was a priority rather than being consumed by maxing out performance. I must stick it on a bench one day just out of curiosity. Honestly, I don't know what I've got. Rollers, light weight fixed rods all just made sense mechanically.
The lift element of what you wrote was what interested me. No one really makes higher lift early cams ... do they? Do they work significantly by pumping more air in quicker?
Putting it in perspective, Ducati's new Panigale 1299 may have 205-horsepower but still has 106.7 lb.ft (at 8,750 rpm - 80+ from about 4,000). See animated "exploded diagram", here.
There are times I feel like a caveman refining my club, evolution having passed me by like one of those rainforest tribes. Don't get me wrong, I like my club, may be there'll be a day when clubs come back into fashion, but like the tribesmen sometimes I do wonder what those strange birds are flying so high above my head and whether one of those metaphorical high powered, composite bows just might make hunting easier.
Still, there's no where to carry beer and groceries on a Panigale ...
I went a similar way with an EV23, high lifters (@.530" ish), valves and porting, and a SE ignition unit but it was just a low budget strap together of cheap old available parts for a runaround. Budget and lack of effort was a priority rather than being consumed by maxing out performance. I must stick it on a bench one day just out of curiosity. Honestly, I don't know what I've got. Rollers, light weight fixed rods all just made sense mechanically.
The lift element of what you wrote was what interested me. No one really makes higher lift early cams ... do they? Do they work significantly by pumping more air in quicker?