Engine locking up...help
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Road Master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 942
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From: Grew up in Texas, moved to AZ
Engine locking up...help
I need your help on what to check next, or maybe someone had a similar issue in the past. This is a first time for me.
Background: I just replaced the oil pump because the scavenger gear side was gouged by debris from a broken lifter block. Nothing else damaged in the cam chest, and I cleaned everything out. Flushed oil lines, oil passages in cam chest, and oil tank. I put everything together, primed oil pump, and ensure oil was getting into oil screen filter, so I know oil pump is working properly. Took it on test ride around the block twice and all was well. Oil pressure very good.
1) Yesterday, I took her on another test ride and heard metallic "tink" noise around front cylinder, then engine just cut out. No lock up, just died. All electrical good. I was able to start it up again and rode 300 feet until the bike died again, and this time when I tried to start the bike, the starter could not turn over the engine. I called it quits and got towed.
2) Today, I put the bike up on lift, turned engine with rear tire and it turned. I set pistons on TDC and re-adjusted PRs for both front and rear. I opened up the primary cover and all looked good. I started the engine with spark plugs out, and it turned over multiple times easily.
3) I put the spark plugs in and tried to start the bike. There seemed to be a tight spot, it turned a little and locked up. I heard a metallic noise through the carb (maybe).
I will have to get further into the engine, but any speculation on issue? Thank you.
Background: I just replaced the oil pump because the scavenger gear side was gouged by debris from a broken lifter block. Nothing else damaged in the cam chest, and I cleaned everything out. Flushed oil lines, oil passages in cam chest, and oil tank. I put everything together, primed oil pump, and ensure oil was getting into oil screen filter, so I know oil pump is working properly. Took it on test ride around the block twice and all was well. Oil pressure very good.
1) Yesterday, I took her on another test ride and heard metallic "tink" noise around front cylinder, then engine just cut out. No lock up, just died. All electrical good. I was able to start it up again and rode 300 feet until the bike died again, and this time when I tried to start the bike, the starter could not turn over the engine. I called it quits and got towed.
2) Today, I put the bike up on lift, turned engine with rear tire and it turned. I set pistons on TDC and re-adjusted PRs for both front and rear. I opened up the primary cover and all looked good. I started the engine with spark plugs out, and it turned over multiple times easily.
3) I put the spark plugs in and tried to start the bike. There seemed to be a tight spot, it turned a little and locked up. I heard a metallic noise through the carb (maybe).
I will have to get further into the engine, but any speculation on issue? Thank you.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 21,024
Likes: 7,548
From: Poolville
Sounds to me like something in the cam chest area definitely going to need to take it off and take pictures of everything as your disassembling it step by step.. I think we might going into the cam bearing...
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Road Master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 942
Likes: 323
From: Grew up in Texas, moved to AZ
hotrod, I was just in the cam chest when changing the oil pump. Cleaned everything thoroughly, and the cam bearing was good, cam, lifters, pinion gear, etc... I will be opening the cam cover again tomorrow. You think it's a broken valve spring? Debris somehow getting into the crank is my worse fear, but I would think that might lock up the rod for sure. Engine was not smoking either. I guess right now, more stripping down is called for.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2010
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From: Poolville
What cam do you have in there currently? If you had something that damage the scavenger side of the first oil pump, obviously there was something in the motor to do that and maybe you didn't get the case totally clean..
HDF Community Team
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,376
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From: NC USA
Dare I ask - what caused the tappet guide to break in the first place?
It could be almost anything. But since you were "just in there" and it shut off, got tight with good oil pressure, check the sensor or module or whatever you have in the nose cone. Take it out and check the timing cup also to be sure it's in the "notch" of the cam and the screw didn't get left loose. (thinking of the noise you described)
If all that's looks ok, put a compression tester on it and see if it's still tight and which (if either) cylinder makes it tight.
I have had engines (air or liquid cooled, gas or diesel) shut off for no apparent reason, start back - get tight, then later start and run when totally cool that turned out to be a bad piston (scored or broken land) trying to seize. (again, thinking of the noise you described)
Could be anything but that's where I'd start.
It could be almost anything. But since you were "just in there" and it shut off, got tight with good oil pressure, check the sensor or module or whatever you have in the nose cone. Take it out and check the timing cup also to be sure it's in the "notch" of the cam and the screw didn't get left loose. (thinking of the noise you described)
If all that's looks ok, put a compression tester on it and see if it's still tight and which (if either) cylinder makes it tight.
I have had engines (air or liquid cooled, gas or diesel) shut off for no apparent reason, start back - get tight, then later start and run when totally cool that turned out to be a bad piston (scored or broken land) trying to seize. (again, thinking of the noise you described)
Could be anything but that's where I'd start.
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Road Master
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Grew up in Texas, moved to AZ
Hotrod- I have a EV 13, and everything was cleaned out, except splitting case.
t50vej-bad lifter wheel jumping on the cam and cracking the tappet block. All lifters were replaced with good Johnson Hylift lifters, new EV-13 cam, and new rear tappet block and all was good in that fix; however, there might have been a small piece hiding behind the oil pump gear corner that I missed somehow (I think). I believe this piece got shifted as I did 4 hours straight riding at 80mph. When this happened the debris/piece got into the scavenger side gears and took out the pump. I lost oil pressure, light went on and loss all oil out the bottom engine breather. So, that is when I did the recent oil pump replacement. There was no damage to lifters, cam, breather gear, pinion gear, oil pump gear, worm gear, or anything in the cam chest during oil pump replacement.
I was sure to put in the rotor cup in correctly, and the bike ran fine. But, this time, I didn't put any blue Loctite on that small bolt, so I will check that first thing in the morning. Then, I will re-install PRs and do a compression check. I took out he PRs in preparation for pulling cam and heads tomorrow. Didn't think about doing the compression check, and was worried about bending a PR.
All good suggestions, and will be back for more advice as I investigate further.
t50vej-bad lifter wheel jumping on the cam and cracking the tappet block. All lifters were replaced with good Johnson Hylift lifters, new EV-13 cam, and new rear tappet block and all was good in that fix; however, there might have been a small piece hiding behind the oil pump gear corner that I missed somehow (I think). I believe this piece got shifted as I did 4 hours straight riding at 80mph. When this happened the debris/piece got into the scavenger side gears and took out the pump. I lost oil pressure, light went on and loss all oil out the bottom engine breather. So, that is when I did the recent oil pump replacement. There was no damage to lifters, cam, breather gear, pinion gear, oil pump gear, worm gear, or anything in the cam chest during oil pump replacement.
I was sure to put in the rotor cup in correctly, and the bike ran fine. But, this time, I didn't put any blue Loctite on that small bolt, so I will check that first thing in the morning. Then, I will re-install PRs and do a compression check. I took out he PRs in preparation for pulling cam and heads tomorrow. Didn't think about doing the compression check, and was worried about bending a PR.
All good suggestions, and will be back for more advice as I investigate further.
Last edited by daven9113; Oct 21, 2020 at 09:42 PM.
HDF Community Team
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,376
Likes: 2,574
From: NC USA
I never loctite them and they are sorta easy to get out of the notch is why I mentioned. But I trust you did it right if you say so... was just a thought since it died out.
Never dealt with a broken valve spring (in anything) so I can't offer anything on that.
These engines turn effortlessly with the push rods and plugs out. Maybe give it a good 15 seconds with the starter a few times and listen again, while it's that far apart. If you hear something you can pinpoint, might save a little re-assembly time without a compression check. If you don't find/hear something definite, I'd throw it together (just enough) to check compression, try to isolate the issue to a cylinder. But that's just me
With all the rods out, the easiest and quickest way to go back is - get the front exhaust lifter up. Install and adjust both intakes and then the rear exhaust. Then turn the engine forward just a little, til the front intake goes all way up, then install/adjust the front exhaust. Save you some time and it's accurate too.
Never dealt with a broken valve spring (in anything) so I can't offer anything on that.
These engines turn effortlessly with the push rods and plugs out. Maybe give it a good 15 seconds with the starter a few times and listen again, while it's that far apart. If you hear something you can pinpoint, might save a little re-assembly time without a compression check. If you don't find/hear something definite, I'd throw it together (just enough) to check compression, try to isolate the issue to a cylinder. But that's just me
With all the rods out, the easiest and quickest way to go back is - get the front exhaust lifter up. Install and adjust both intakes and then the rear exhaust. Then turn the engine forward just a little, til the front intake goes all way up, then install/adjust the front exhaust. Save you some time and it's accurate too.
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2010
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From: Poolville
Just a note, I did not suggest a compression test because I was under the impression that the motor was locked up and did not want you to do more harm...
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From: Brighton, MI
Nice tip!:
By t150vej: "With all the rods out, the easiest and quickest way to go back is - get the front exhaust lifter up. Install and adjust both intakes and then the rear exhaust. Then turn the engine forward just a little, til the front intake goes all way up, then install/adjust the front exhaust. Save you some time and it's accurate too."
By t150vej: "With all the rods out, the easiest and quickest way to go back is - get the front exhaust lifter up. Install and adjust both intakes and then the rear exhaust. Then turn the engine forward just a little, til the front intake goes all way up, then install/adjust the front exhaust. Save you some time and it's accurate too."
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Road Master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 942
Likes: 323
From: Grew up in Texas, moved to AZ
Guys, here's where I'm at. Couldn't get to the bike until this morning.
1) Check ignition timing rotor cup and it was all good and tight. Timing is still tight.
2) Turn motor with starter with spark plugs out and PRs out---It spins and nothing out of the normal. Oil filling all lifters.
3) Put PRs back in and turn motor with starter---It spins and nothing out of the normal
4) Conducted a cold compression test with wide throttle open-- 120psi rear, 115psi front
At this point, I'm tempted to put in the spark plugs and start her again, but don't want to cause any further damage. What I am suspecting is bottom end damage due to debris from failed lifter and lifter block. When I turn the engine with socket on compensator nut, there is one REALLY tight spot to overcome. It is really tight compared to other times that I have turned the motor by hand.
So, what's next? Start her up and possibly risk another lock and stop or just pull the top end and inspect bottom end? Thanks.
1) Check ignition timing rotor cup and it was all good and tight. Timing is still tight.
2) Turn motor with starter with spark plugs out and PRs out---It spins and nothing out of the normal. Oil filling all lifters.
3) Put PRs back in and turn motor with starter---It spins and nothing out of the normal
4) Conducted a cold compression test with wide throttle open-- 120psi rear, 115psi front
At this point, I'm tempted to put in the spark plugs and start her again, but don't want to cause any further damage. What I am suspecting is bottom end damage due to debris from failed lifter and lifter block. When I turn the engine with socket on compensator nut, there is one REALLY tight spot to overcome. It is really tight compared to other times that I have turned the motor by hand.
So, what's next? Start her up and possibly risk another lock and stop or just pull the top end and inspect bottom end? Thanks.