Talk about Torque!
Tourer
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 293
Likes: 7
I used the expression 'noise police' meaning the authorities who regulate the noise made by new vehicles. For manufacturers like Harley to sell new bikes they have to meet set regulations (on all manner of things in addition to noise) and are very quiet when stock.
One of the ways Harley meet those regulations is by using very high gearing, so that at the road speeds the tests are measured, the bike meets the requirements. Most of us spend a lot of money tuning our bikes, when all that is needed is to reduce the gearing. Even on a bone stock bike that will give very cheap performance improvements.
So the first stage of tuning a new Harley should be to reduce gearing, thereby increasing torque IMHO. It is almost free! A 19% increase in torque on stock gearing costs a lot of money.
One of the ways Harley meet those regulations is by using very high gearing, so that at the road speeds the tests are measured, the bike meets the requirements. Most of us spend a lot of money tuning our bikes, when all that is needed is to reduce the gearing. Even on a bone stock bike that will give very cheap performance improvements.
So the first stage of tuning a new Harley should be to reduce gearing, thereby increasing torque IMHO. It is almost free! A 19% increase in torque on stock gearing costs a lot of money.
Without doubt, the drive by decibel test is why you are seeing higher gearing on may manufacturers bikes.
Ducati especially.
People get used to the new dynamic, and then think there is something wrong with lower gearing, or it vibrates too much.
Some used to gear up their shovels for this reason, but, of course, acceleration suffered.
I am a gear them down type.
Let them rev.
If the bike goes ok with 32/66 pulleys, how do you think it will go with 30/70?
Even better.
But, of course, if you are planning on riding all day at 85 mph, you might (quite reasonably) think that highway gearing is for you, and that there is enough torque to get you going now.
And gearing does not actually have any effect of engine torque procdution, I think that is pretty obvious.
It merely moves it in the rev range, so that the torque is higher at lower rpm.
A crank reading will be unaltered, clearly.
The only advantage of high horsepower, is the ability to gear correctly to use it.
A note. I ride all day at 85 or more, and have no objection the the engine singing along underneath me. None at all.
Thread Starter
|
Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 45,429
Likes: 2,897
From: Bedford UK
Check a few manuals. Common misconception.
I am quoting directly from a 09 book that I have in front of me right now.
Gear ratio...
5th 1.18
6th 1.00
I will concede I have no interest in the touring bikes, so for all I know they may be different. Or they may not. I have never had the interest to find out.
I am quoting directly from a 09 book that I have in front of me right now.
Gear ratio...
5th 1.18
6th 1.00
I will concede I have no interest in the touring bikes, so for all I know they may be different. Or they may not. I have never had the interest to find out.
I doubt if Harley makes two different 6-speed boxes. Overall gearing tends to be different between the model ranges, with touring bikes a little lower.
Without doubt, the drive by decibel test is why you are seeing higher gearing on may manufacturers bikes.
Ducati especially.
People get used to the new dynamic, and then think there is something wrong with lower gearing, or it vibrates too much.
Some used to gear up their shovels for this reason, but, of course, acceleration suffered.
I am a gear them down type.
Let them rev.
If the bike goes ok with 32/66 pulleys, how do you think it will go with 30/70?
Even better.
But, of course, if you are planning on riding all day at 85 mph, you might (quite reasonably) think that highway gearing is for you, and that there is enough torque to get you going now.
And gearing does not actually have any effect of engine torque procdution, I think that is pretty obvious.
It merely moves it in the rev range, so that the torque is higher at lower rpm.
A crank reading will be unaltered, clearly.
The only advantage of high horsepower, is the ability to gear correctly to use it.
A note. I ride all day at 85 or more, and have no objection the the engine singing along underneath me. None at all.
Ducati especially.
People get used to the new dynamic, and then think there is something wrong with lower gearing, or it vibrates too much.
Some used to gear up their shovels for this reason, but, of course, acceleration suffered.
I am a gear them down type.
Let them rev.
If the bike goes ok with 32/66 pulleys, how do you think it will go with 30/70?
Even better.
But, of course, if you are planning on riding all day at 85 mph, you might (quite reasonably) think that highway gearing is for you, and that there is enough torque to get you going now.
And gearing does not actually have any effect of engine torque procdution, I think that is pretty obvious.
It merely moves it in the rev range, so that the torque is higher at lower rpm.
A crank reading will be unaltered, clearly.
The only advantage of high horsepower, is the ability to gear correctly to use it.
A note. I ride all day at 85 or more, and have no objection the the engine singing along underneath me. None at all.
Thread Starter
|
Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 45,429
Likes: 2,897
From: Bedford UK
Here's another option ....
"Delkron's assembled 120" Complete Square Block engine (4.250" bore with 4.250" stroke) will fit the stock Harley-DavidsonŽ SoftailŽ (1999 & earlier) chassis as well as Harley-DavidsonŽ DYNA (1998 & earlier), FXR and FLT with no chassis modification.
Our 120" Square Block ships fully assembled and has all the components of our long block, but has been finished off with a recipe that has yielded a modest 121 HP and 138 lbs. of torque at the rear wheel. This is a complete plug and play system including carb and ignition. Just unplug your old tired Evo and hook this fire breather up to your stock charging system and driveline! Then HANG ON!"
R/
'Chop
"Delkron's assembled 120" Complete Square Block engine (4.250" bore with 4.250" stroke) will fit the stock Harley-DavidsonŽ SoftailŽ (1999 & earlier) chassis as well as Harley-DavidsonŽ DYNA (1998 & earlier), FXR and FLT with no chassis modification.
Our 120" Square Block ships fully assembled and has all the components of our long block, but has been finished off with a recipe that has yielded a modest 121 HP and 138 lbs. of torque at the rear wheel. This is a complete plug and play system including carb and ignition. Just unplug your old tired Evo and hook this fire breather up to your stock charging system and driveline! Then HANG ON!"
R/
'Chop
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,699
Likes: 15
From: Qualicum Beach, B.C. CAN
Great thread. I see the idea of riding at higher rpm to keep it in the torque curve.
About 6 speeds, what I have heard is the 06+ stock HD 6 speed has a 1:1 6th, but the gearset from SE had all the same ratios as the stock 5 speed + a .86:1 6th.
http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US...ts/-J03481.pdf
Following this one!
About 6 speeds, what I have heard is the 06+ stock HD 6 speed has a 1:1 6th, but the gearset from SE had all the same ratios as the stock 5 speed + a .86:1 6th.
http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US...ts/-J03481.pdf
Following this one!
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,077
Likes: 2,137
From: Ohio
Baker offers 6 speed kits of 1:1 and .86 OD but they send a smaller trans pulley with them to lower the gearing so lowering the gearing is Bakers answer also. Ultima is .86 OD for $500 and Swangster supplied the SE 6 speed kit.
Already changed the primary out with a Rivera complete system I got cheap on Ebay, talking to several newer bike owners and stated their 6th gear was useless and was sending the bikes to the shops to put a 30 tooth pulley, they stated the pulley changed made the lower gears come alive also, at the time I had a drive belt that lost a couple of teeth and the stock pulley was worn after removing it, on went a lower pulley so I'm a little lower than the primary change, 55 mph roll on accelleration is great.
Changing the compensator makes the starter work a little harder but the performance trade off is worth it and clearly (as GR mentioned) the most economical way.
Already changed the primary out with a Rivera complete system I got cheap on Ebay, talking to several newer bike owners and stated their 6th gear was useless and was sending the bikes to the shops to put a 30 tooth pulley, they stated the pulley changed made the lower gears come alive also, at the time I had a drive belt that lost a couple of teeth and the stock pulley was worn after removing it, on went a lower pulley so I'm a little lower than the primary change, 55 mph roll on accelleration is great.
Changing the compensator makes the starter work a little harder but the performance trade off is worth it and clearly (as GR mentioned) the most economical way.
Tourer
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 490
Likes: 264
From: cambridge
This thread hasn't been touched in years but it's a good one. Thanks for all the excellent info from the original poster.
I decided to put a baker 21t in my 2003 fatboy. I thought I would add my input here to share the knowledge and experience for others interested as well.
21t primary needed an 80p chain. Both were easy to install.
The ride... first gear is so short it's kinda silly. Otherwise, every hear feels as if it's a half gear under what it used to be if that makes sense.
As I said, first is short, you fly between 1,2 and 3 real quickly. You'll end up cruising in 4th while in town too. Significantly more torque throughout the gears. 4th pulls closer to what 3rd used too, 5 feels like 4th used to etc etc.
Vibration at 60mph/100kph is increased a bit as expected but your well in the powerband at this point.
I think it feels a little less rider friendly because of how short the gears are but if your primary focus is performance, this helps, for sure. Lots more get up and go.
I'm yet to discover any change in fuel millage cause I just did the swap but I do expect fewer kilometers per tank.
I am excited to line up beside my friends with 103s and put even more distance between them and me with my little 88!
I decided to put a baker 21t in my 2003 fatboy. I thought I would add my input here to share the knowledge and experience for others interested as well.
21t primary needed an 80p chain. Both were easy to install.
The ride... first gear is so short it's kinda silly. Otherwise, every hear feels as if it's a half gear under what it used to be if that makes sense.
As I said, first is short, you fly between 1,2 and 3 real quickly. You'll end up cruising in 4th while in town too. Significantly more torque throughout the gears. 4th pulls closer to what 3rd used too, 5 feels like 4th used to etc etc.
Vibration at 60mph/100kph is increased a bit as expected but your well in the powerband at this point.
I think it feels a little less rider friendly because of how short the gears are but if your primary focus is performance, this helps, for sure. Lots more get up and go.
I'm yet to discover any change in fuel millage cause I just did the swap but I do expect fewer kilometers per tank.
I am excited to line up beside my friends with 103s and put even more distance between them and me with my little 88!
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,077
Likes: 2,137
From: Ohio
Originally Posted by Tee⋁18514911
Nice thread! This was before my hdforums time so it was a nice read. Figured it is Graham that started it. Ha ha
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