Carb vs f.i.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,766
Likes: 16
From: Roseville, CA
http://www.hdopenroad.com/guest-arti...e-sweet-years/
Read the EFI section dudes.
Read the EFI section dudes.
Now that I have both a couple of carbed bikes and now an injected, the injected is nice, but not nearly as freindly as the carbs when thinking of mods. If I happened to break down, I hope I'm on the carbed bike because I can probably fix it and parts are readilly available..
EFI breakdown is a 1 in 50,000 experience I bet. That's like being afraid of riding because you might get a flat in 10 or 20 years.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,952
Likes: 15
From: Senoia, Ga., by way of Miami, Fl..
Better dispersal for less hot spots and potentially more power.
Carbed bikes don't have fuel pumps? Gravity feed only? Not for all those super-reliable carbed cars, right? Also the part about any one bad sensor = tow truck is false too.
With an autotuner, its much more friendly.
EFI breakdown is a 1 in 50,000 experience I bet. That's like being afraid of riding because you might get a flat in 10 or 20 years.
Carbed bikes don't have fuel pumps? Gravity feed only? Not for all those super-reliable carbed cars, right? Also the part about any one bad sensor = tow truck is false too.
With an autotuner, its much more friendly.
EFI breakdown is a 1 in 50,000 experience I bet. That's like being afraid of riding because you might get a flat in 10 or 20 years.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,078
Likes: 2,150
From: Ohio
Expresson of opinions without arguements, glad this is the Evo forum.
Ok going to pull out the wildcard, M&M duel runner throttle body design just plain out sounds like ****! split mine, removed the divider and got the M&M to sound more like a Harley, couldn't take Italians simulating the japanese sound anymore.
Ok going to pull out the wildcard, M&M duel runner throttle body design just plain out sounds like ****! split mine, removed the divider and got the M&M to sound more like a Harley, couldn't take Italians simulating the japanese sound anymore.
http://www.hdopenroad.com/guest-arti...e-sweet-years/
Read the EFI section dudes.
Read the EFI section dudes.
In addition, the MM system is open loop in terms of AFR, but temperature and barometric pressure are dynamically controlled--Which you allude to here:
EFI adapts quickly to temperature and conditions and it's advantages, infinite tuning options is only in the hands of a $300-$500 a session tuner and you hope he is a good one that has the ability to use all of the drop down menues, if not, should be another guy available to charge you again. In the right hands, a Delphi with a Mastertune/Powercommander is a weapon and a great combination for finely tuning and getting every ounce of efficiency is a strength and will give credit when credit is due.
Expresson of opinions without arguements, glad this is the Evo forum.
Ok going to pull out the wildcard, M&M duel runner throttle body design just plain out sounds like ****! split mine, removed the divider and got the M&M to sound more like a Harley, couldn't take Italians simulating the japanese sound anymore.
Ok going to pull out the wildcard, M&M duel runner throttle body design just plain out sounds like ****! split mine, removed the divider and got the M&M to sound more like a Harley, couldn't take Italians simulating the japanese sound anymore.
I know in my industry, everyone is trying to run ITBs on everything, but they're completely out of their minds.
Now, in terms of full load performance, Open loop vs closed loop doesn't even have a role. The Delphi system (Along with just about every EFI system on the market) goes to open loop at about 40% throttle. The only issues I have ever had relate to low speed operation.
Now, if you guys think HD is "Lagging behind" the automotive industry, in terms of engine management, you'd be barking up the wrong tree. HD has several patents related to Ionization feedback detection, so in addition to all the usual parameters read by the ECU, it also factors in the efficiency of the combustion process and can control spark parameters accordingly.
So, is it easier to get more HP from a carb setup, Of course--particularly when you don't have the resources to design an efficient EFI system.
Is the current Delphi system better than the MM system? Of course, it's actually revolutionary. But we're comparing state of the art to an OBDI era system.
Would you not buy a car because it was OBDI?
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,078
Likes: 2,150
From: Ohio
At
GHGary, looks like you explained my quiz and in great depth
I wish I had documentation numbers of my mods, knowing that a Delphi and carb was a single runner and having resources to cut and tig back together I had nothing to lose with a backup plenom in hand, it did allow cross talk which gave the Harley idle but needed more fuel probaly due to increased area in the plenom. A 3.5 bar regulator is available for the M&M which would of taken care of maxed fuel delivery but Powercommanders only remove a slight amount of timing and was ready for a new direction
Is a sampling sensor replacing the o2 for Ionization detection
Has been my point from the beginning
Good stuff Gary!
WOT, or any one point in a powerband not much. but EFI has a much better resolution for fuel delivery and accuracy throughout the power range. In general terms dynochart of carbed engine is going to have all kinds of dips and other artifacts in the torque curve related to the limitations of fuel management by vacuum signal. (AKA Witchcraft)
Dyno Numbers? I'd wonder if you gained or lost TQ ore responsiveness with the divider removal since common notion is that separate runners = more torque and response.
Now, if you guys think HD is "Lagging behind" the automotive industry, in terms of engine management, you'd be barking up the wrong tree. HD has several patents related to Ionization feedback detection, so in addition to all the usual parameters read by the ECU, it also factors in the efficiency of the combustion process and can control spark parameters accordingly.
So, is it easier to get more HP from a carb setup, Of course--particularly when you don't have the resources to design an efficient EFI system.
Good stuff Gary!
I personally don't more than what I've read about the ionization feedback, and honestly, I only know about it, because one of my braniac automotive engineer friends started asking me if I knew anything about it. He was interested in using it on his eleventy billion HP DSM that does an eight second quarter mile or something like that. He melts a lot of pistons.
In 07 Garret had a turboed Road King at SEMA. I came home with pictures and studied up about how to do it on mine.
I was just going to use the MM hard parts and reconfigure some AEM EMS system to handle the ECU duties.
Then I hauled a tent, sleeping bags, clothes and groceries across a fair piece of Canada and it ran so flawlessly I decided not to poke at it.
In 07 Garret had a turboed Road King at SEMA. I came home with pictures and studied up about how to do it on mine.
I was just going to use the MM hard parts and reconfigure some AEM EMS system to handle the ECU duties.
Then I hauled a tent, sleeping bags, clothes and groceries across a fair piece of Canada and it ran so flawlessly I decided not to poke at it.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,699
Likes: 15
From: Qualicum Beach, B.C. CAN
This is an awesome 'debate' thread, men!
Great technical comparisons, and most civil presentation.
Proud to be an EVO rider.
I would like to add one tiny and insignificant personal opinion, if I may:
My S&S Super E is just plain sexy!
Would love the DaVinci polish job on her, but she's still gorgeous in stock form.
Three screws I can play with, right out in the open!
And the satisfaction when get it right.
Anyway, carry on. Great thread.
Great technical comparisons, and most civil presentation.
Proud to be an EVO rider.
I would like to add one tiny and insignificant personal opinion, if I may:
My S&S Super E is just plain sexy!
Would love the DaVinci polish job on her, but she's still gorgeous in stock form.
Three screws I can play with, right out in the open!
And the satisfaction when get it right.
Anyway, carry on. Great thread.
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Elite HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,766
Likes: 16
From: Roseville, CA
How much more power will an EFI bike make at say, 10,000 ft elevation than a carbed bike tuned at sea level?
I wonder if and when Harley will go to direct injection allowing higher compression ratios due to the cooling effect with even more power and mileage?
I wonder if and when Harley will go to direct injection allowing higher compression ratios due to the cooling effect with even more power and mileage?
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,952
Likes: 15
From: Senoia, Ga., by way of Miami, Fl..
Your question of DI has actually been part of my point regarding the moco's lag.. DI definatly has its advantages. It does in fact create a cooling affect and with wide band o2's, it can make adjustments on the fly for proper AF ratio under nearly all opperating modes, including WOT, even with forced induction... If they intend to remain air cooled, making this step could be very bennificial.. EFI is a wonderful thing if it is used to its potential..