Just out of interest, what are your Dyno readings now as it stands, and what is your overall budget?

I'm in the middle of a teardown but going a different route; low to mid EV-23, high lift rockers, interesting head, valve and seat job. I'll probably stick with a restrictive exhaust because they don't effect bottom end whereas straight thrus do. Like you, I studied different approaches and results for months and had to de-bug the tune the last owner gave the bike. In my opinion, and shoot me down if you want, 9 out of 10 tunes were aiming in the wrong place and just trying to fix things by throwing money at the problem, e.g. your typical Mikuni bolt on.

Ultimately, more cubes is the real answer ... ask GRBrown ... that means a lot of Dollars but if you go at it bit by bit you'll probably end up spending the same.

I used to work on a parts counter and saw too many guys spend too much and over tune their bike (i.e. end up with less at the end).

Yes, I have alloy wheels but I am used to European/Japanese standards of handling and breaking ... big cultural difference!


If you have a tachometer, I saw a 8,000 rpm H-D ignition unit on Ebay for $29. Ultima adjustables are coming up around $100 but all you're really buying is 1,000 rpm more so why pay full price?

My equation is, "90% of the performance for 50% of the price is a lot better deal than 100% of the performance for 100% of the price". Then you break your engine.

Beware the bottomless pit ...

 

Handling and brakes can be greatly improved, with a suitable injection of cash and know-how! 6-pot front calipers, 4-pot rear, 13" full floating front rotors, floating rear, custom shocks, True-Track stabilizer kit, CCE front tree kit, sticky tyres.......

 

Homeward bound, you have some valid points but Schulte has already stated that Ultima(*****o background) is not his desire which puts him into a S&S and can build 3 Evo's for a big S&S but correct on cubes is the answer

Most buddy races are WOT in 2 to 3 gears as a good running Harley can get to 100 mph quickly and are not looking to drag footpegs in a buddy race. Can the RK handle high speeds? I personally know that 118 mph is stable on a fatbike and 4 streetglides where @ 110 as those where speeds recently in South Dakota, do these speeds interest me, h$ll no but it was buddies, a group of Twinkies and 1 Evo

A adjustable ignition is needed for high compression and can't see a $29 module doing that, The Ultima rollers are different ratio's and need to factor that in, don't know of anyone using them outside of a Ultima motor, why put stress on a rockers with a quicker ratio when a proper lift cam can be installed?

On your percentage of power loss with exhaust, you must be researching true duals because they are known for a torque dip around 2500 and a characteristic but gain in midrange on. Don't know of any 2-1 exhaust that will lose power and torque in the riding area, unless you are trying to put a large tube high flow 2-1 on a small cube engine. 2-1's are a win-win in any situation but have different qualities you have to live with like a different sound and looks on a bagger

On the Mikuni statement, a warmed up CV will carry into 100 hp but has a lag while waiting for the diaphram to pull the piston up no matter what spring is in it compared to a quick response of a Mikuni. Saying a Mikuni is throwing away money in a performance build like Schulte is after is incorrect and a Mikuni is easily tuned with a correct build. A CV still has a section of the piston hanging down in the bore at WOT that may keep a performance junkie awake at night where the barn door design of the Mikuni has no restrictions in the bore when in giddy up. If you run straight pipes, incorrect compression to cam, wrong gearing then no carb is going to repair it and not the Mikuni's fault but experiance of if the hands that hold the Mikuni.

If you change gearing in a Evo RK for more top end with the already present slug 3.15 gearing and heavy bike, you are going to need a pusher vehicle or have to ride the clutch a long way to take off and then going to need a real engine to pull the higher gearing and wind drag in upper speeds, plus you lose the buddy throttle race, then your manhood, mechanical ability, buying a round and sometimes the losers ***** size conversations with the bar maid becomes present at the next watering hole, not everyone understands buddy races.

Nitrous still needs a strong base engine and forged pistons and at $800 dollars for a consistant system is best bang for the buck but bottle fills, excessive cylinder heat in air cooled engine can also lead to a notso bang for the buck compared to a stroker kit for $1000, I'll take the stroker kit anyday over nitrous as I know nitrous properties well and results of failure.

Everything is debatable

 

The factory ignition module off the efi won't handle the modifications. If you want to tweek the 96 efi that's gonna run $180 at a minimum for a newer used ecm, $300+ for the power commander and however much for bigger injectors. Plus then you pretty much HAVE to buy a wego system or pay for dyno time. Or take the $350 for a full mikuni 45mm kit and 60 for a full set of hers and have it done and get it tuned in in your driveway. Sounds like a lot of money saved to me.
Yes there is no replacement for displacement. But harlrys (and all bikes for that matter) come overly choked down from the factory. Thank the hippy treehuggin bunny lovers for that! So if you open them up and let them breathe how they were designed to you'll get way more out of. After you open them then you control the breathing, cam, intake and exhaust.with the cam I'm looking at it should pull strong from 1,800 to 5,00 rpm. Still sitting around 80lbs at 6000.
As far as exhaust the reason that the 2 into 1 works so well and is supperior all has to do with air currents. Cold air is attracted to heat. Even with your bike running the exterior air is trying to get up your pipe while the hot air is trying to escape. With the 2 into 1 the cold air is basically blocked off at the junction of the 2 pipes. Its been shown that because of the design of the thunder header it will actually pull air (with valve open) through your intake. Doin thins of course helps power. The more air/fuel pulled into the combustion chamber the more power...
Building bit by bit will result in more money spent. You'll do the stage one and maybe a cam. Then turn around and do headwork and now your cam isn't working well with the work so you buy a hotter cam. Then you up the compression now your heads will flow better with a little bigger porting that wasn't done because you were staying at stock compression. Now because you've hoped compression there a cam that will work better than the second cam you bought.... Its all to how much you can do at once. But doing it over again is gonna cost at least $60 a time for gaskets.
With head work at $600 I'm looking at $1600 over all no dyno time. That includes my efi to carb tank parts and all. So its really not too bad. $6200 for the bike $2000 in motor work, I'm still a lot less than a lot of guys spend on just the bike. A friend of mine just put $5500 into an anniversary edition wide glide and after this I won't eat him but ill keep up a lot better and still have reliability.

 

oh and the dyno numbers were whatever they are stock. i put in the ev27 cam and pushrods just to find a bent exhaust valve. so she never got ran with just that.

 

That's a shame.

I am sorry, I missed taking on board you have an EFI model and know nothing about their peculiarities or the additional costs incurred. I have a carb model. As bagger accepts, the CVs are actually a lot better than folks give them credit for. $250+ stays in the bank ...


1997bagger, fair comment re buddy races which I take on board. Our buddy races tend to involve a lot more curves, adverse cambers and car drivers ... hence the pre-occupation with brakes, handling and suspension. If I wanted to fast on a Harley, I'd buy and strip down an FXR, not do it to a Road King. Losing weight helps a lot too ... what would be the difference, nearly 200lbs?


Bangs for bucks is a complex equation for which there are numerous approaches and no best way. My "best way" is for whatever good quality kit I can pick up the cheapest, not the nth degree at any price.

In fairness, the $29 module is actual a $149 SE module being sold for $29 which allows for an unlimited rev limit (8,000rpm). I'd say an extra 1,000 rpm is worth $29. I do actually hit the rev limit quite often.

I have my eye out for an old police one which was 6,000 rpm right now but I don't plan on spending much more.

I think you confused mention of an Ultima adjustable ignition unit ($100) with high lift roller rocker arms ... there I picked up a set of Crane ones for less than half price with no more than a couple of dyno runs on them because a WOT freak wasn't satisfied with the results (I'd be happy if I got what he wasn't). I would not have bought 1.75s by choice ... but at that price and quality, I can afford to experiment.

Why?

No one seems to make such an early cam (opens 10 degrees, closes 30 degrees) with that kind of lift ... and at .533" lift it's really not that radical. 95 out of 100 cams seem to be gear more towards the top end. It's a gentle cam (which I also picked up half price), so I cannot see any problems even with STD springs. I'll probably skim the head a little too.

Yes, I was comparing true duals and typical straight throughs with 2-into-1s. For my own use, I hardly see any benefits from using OEM mufflers (which are actually pretty good on torque) ... I just don't use top end power, and got sick of noise watching other people make it needlessly. Currently I run a pair of fatter, later model Electra-Glide mufflers and the old SEs are in cupboard. My pay off is better 'early hours' relationships with my neighbours!


BTW, I queried Andrews about their recommendations for stock or low compression on these cams, they often say 9.2:1 max, but it simply boiled down to detonation issue, e.g. more related to quality of available pump gas. I read many of you guys complaining about low octane fuels ... I cannot compare.

 

You are right, I misunderstood your Ultima quote as rockers, my dumba$$ filter wasn't turned on. Currently running the Ultima, it is a good ignition and use the timing adjustments

If you want to see some strange numbers of a old school cam that some builders use with confidence, check out the S&S 561

 

I don't know it and so cannot comment, and am always interested to learn, but it looks like it still sacrifices some sub-3000 rpm.

Yes, of course, it's 'horses for courses'. I live in a metropolitan area so perhaps I spend more time down there.

BTW, I exaggerated slightly when I said 95 out of 100 because there probably aren't a 100 cams but you get what I mean. In my opinion, Harley tuning has been too dominated by influences from drag racing ... and latterly bizarre dyno competitions ... and not enough by road riding. I could qualify what I mean by that more if you want ... but I'd probably be better and 'shut up' until I 'put up' and see what comes out of this engine.

I just says to guy it's mostly not all about top end ... (I mean, look at the way the CV carb is jetted out stock ... blanked out idles, super lean needles and over rich mains. Get that running right first before you consider whether you *really* have to buy a Mikuni.

How much do we have to pay for bragging rights? There'll always be some other guy ... of what now just boils down to *richer* guy, not more knowledgeable or committed guy ... who comes along and lays down more dollars. Surely there's another kind of bragging rights for what you achieved doing it yourself on a little as possible and getting almost as much ... or even a more rideable mount.

In these economic days, we should be more proud of what we don't spend, not what we do spend.

(My 2c ... invoice is in the post)

 

Exactly. That's why I've had to do so much research. To save that almighty dollar I worked my *** off for. But no mistake if I can gain more fine tuning (effecting both power and longevity of my motor) I will spend the extra money. One point I thought about was bigger intake valves. For my build and what my overall goal is, not worth the $300 extra. But that's just me.
if you want a low end cam go for something with shirt duration and mid lift. Like you said earlier whatever you choose you could get away with stock rise springs. But also consider you could go with a titanium valve and run more efficient.
Bragging rights as you put it isn't always about money spent. I can build an evo that will run with built twinkies for less. Cams alone are cheaper. Now you want to start dropping money on big bore kits then yes its a money game. But anyone with money can pay for a bike to be built, doesn't mean its a good build though. And to me my bragging rights come in at the point that ill know just how much I had to shave off of each piston ring to achieve the proper spacing, I know the end play on my cam, etc... but the guy who just went and threw money at a builder knows none of that. I respect the guys who have pinched their pennys and done their research and development a little more than the guy down the street living off his trust fund.
but anyways... back to cams. If you're looking for a certain cam or style in particular you can sometimes Google dyno runs and it'll pull them up. Woodcarbs is has dyno runs listed for their cams and I believe nightrider does as well. Nrhs has a great explanation of what all the cam different numbers on the cam measurements are and how they effect the performance. Like I said I'm going with the crane because I can change it + or - 4 degrees and effect my cam "kick in" time by 300 rpm.

 

http://www.bishopsperformance.com/im...of/EvoEV23.jpg