Another MM EFI vs Carb thread
Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 45,429
Likes: 2,897
From: Bedford UK
You can't IMHO. Some of the aftermarket units are available with 'self-tune', but that can only be to pre-determined criteria embedded in the device. The only feedback worthy of the name is a dyno. The backyard way of 'tuning' used the proverbial backside as feedback, but vehicles these days are far more refined than that! We also expect much more of a modern bike than we did 40-50 years ago.
Dirt don't hurt
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 21,062
Likes: 4,547
From: Haslet Texas
One of the features of the EFI versus carb debate is the perpetual internet myth that setting up or tuning a modern vehicle can still be done in a backyard with a screwdriver and a hammer. Having owned bikes since the 60s and Harleys since the 70s I have seen very few backyard 'tuned' bikes that run well, simply because there are not many of us with the skills or expertise to do a decent job. How many poor ole shovels can we recall seeing with an S&S carb and running like a b1tch?!
Nothing's changed! Installing a carb and getting the bike to run well requires a lot of effort, just as an EFI bike does. To do the job properly and competently with either of them involves expense and I don't see any short cuts for either set-up. As with any significant engine mod, either of them requires a dyno tune to give best results.
Nothing's changed! Installing a carb and getting the bike to run well requires a lot of effort, just as an EFI bike does. To do the job properly and competently with either of them involves expense and I don't see any short cuts for either set-up. As with any significant engine mod, either of them requires a dyno tune to give best results.
FWIW I took my bike and had it dynode because a friend of mine said I had to for it to be dialed in right.
The dyno guy said it was as good as it was gonna get and he didn't charge me anything.
S&S Super E on a '95 Heritage.
It was easy to set up and run.
Road Captain
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 701
Likes: 1
From: The Great Southwest Desert
As a fellow whose job it was to develop EFI maps for an OEM back around 8 years ago, I can tell you that the S&S software is very good. But without an eddy current or water brake dyno to tune on, you will not be able to get a good map. You may get one that works by accident, but it will not be good across the board and you can eat engines in the process of trying to get it right. (Our first two 124" engines lasted less than a day each in the beginning of the project when there were NO BASE MAPS to start with. The third engine made it through the process intact. Barely)
I chose to convert from FLHTCUI to FLHTCU using all factory parts. Your cruise will still work IF you get the carb with the cruise arm on it. It can not be added after the fact as the throttle shaft/drum is different. Also, the arm changed in '99. (It can be swapped off if you find a correct arm from an earlier carb.)
The tank conversion is more difficult than most let on too and gets glossed over in the threads. It isn't just a put the adaptors in and use a Pingle petcock. On the tanks before Delphi, the in tank fittings are silver soldered and have to be cut off from in the tank. You don't want any sparks during that project!
When I did my conversion, I found a tank off a carb bike and painted it to match my bike. Adding to the cost. Still, I did the whole conversion by careful swap meet and fleabay shopping for under $800 total. You do not have to change out the ignition pickup in the nose cone, just the timing rotor. Stock ign modules are cheap. The wire harness is unobtainium (They do show up on occasion on fleabay) but not hard to make if you have the Deutch connector tools.
I would never go back to EFI on my EVO. Carb is so much better in my application. (If my bike had had Delphi EFI, I would have never considered the job, however. That could have been EASILY maintained and made to work. The MM was done for and not worth rebuilding and replacing.)
I chose to convert from FLHTCUI to FLHTCU using all factory parts. Your cruise will still work IF you get the carb with the cruise arm on it. It can not be added after the fact as the throttle shaft/drum is different. Also, the arm changed in '99. (It can be swapped off if you find a correct arm from an earlier carb.)
The tank conversion is more difficult than most let on too and gets glossed over in the threads. It isn't just a put the adaptors in and use a Pingle petcock. On the tanks before Delphi, the in tank fittings are silver soldered and have to be cut off from in the tank. You don't want any sparks during that project!
When I did my conversion, I found a tank off a carb bike and painted it to match my bike. Adding to the cost. Still, I did the whole conversion by careful swap meet and fleabay shopping for under $800 total. You do not have to change out the ignition pickup in the nose cone, just the timing rotor. Stock ign modules are cheap. The wire harness is unobtainium (They do show up on occasion on fleabay) but not hard to make if you have the Deutch connector tools.
I would never go back to EFI on my EVO. Carb is so much better in my application. (If my bike had had Delphi EFI, I would have never considered the job, however. That could have been EASILY maintained and made to work. The MM was done for and not worth rebuilding and replacing.)
Thread Starter
|
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,952
Likes: 15
From: Senoia, Ga., by way of Miami, Fl..
As a fellow whose job it was to develop EFI maps for an OEM back around 8 years ago, I can tell you that the S&S software is very good. But without an eddy current or water brake dyno to tune on, you will not be able to get a good map. You may get one that works by accident, but it will not be good across the board and you can eat engines in the process of trying to get it right. (Our first two 124" engines lasted less than a day each in the beginning of the project when there were NO BASE MAPS to start with. The third engine made it through the process intact. Barely)
I chose to convert from FLHTCUI to FLHTCU using all factory parts. Your cruise will still work IF you get the carb with the cruise arm on it. It can not be added after the fact as the throttle shaft/drum is different. Also, the arm changed in '99. (It can be swapped off if you find a correct arm from an earlier carb.)
The tank conversion is more difficult than most let on too and gets glossed over in the threads. It isn't just a put the adaptors in and use a Pingle petcock. On the tanks before Delphi, the in tank fittings are silver soldered and have to be cut off from in the tank. You don't want any sparks during that project!
When I did my conversion, I found a tank off a carb bike and painted it to match my bike. Adding to the cost. Still, I did the whole conversion by careful swap meet and fleabay shopping for under $800 total. You do not have to change out the ignition pickup in the nose cone, just the timing rotor. Stock ign modules are cheap. The wire harness is unobtainium (They do show up on occasion on fleabay) but not hard to make if you have the Deutch connector tools.
I would never go back to EFI on my EVO. Carb is so much better in my application. (If my bike had had Delphi EFI, I would have never considered the job, however. That could have been EASILY maintained and made to work. The MM was done for and not worth rebuilding and replacing.)
I chose to convert from FLHTCUI to FLHTCU using all factory parts. Your cruise will still work IF you get the carb with the cruise arm on it. It can not be added after the fact as the throttle shaft/drum is different. Also, the arm changed in '99. (It can be swapped off if you find a correct arm from an earlier carb.)
The tank conversion is more difficult than most let on too and gets glossed over in the threads. It isn't just a put the adaptors in and use a Pingle petcock. On the tanks before Delphi, the in tank fittings are silver soldered and have to be cut off from in the tank. You don't want any sparks during that project!
When I did my conversion, I found a tank off a carb bike and painted it to match my bike. Adding to the cost. Still, I did the whole conversion by careful swap meet and fleabay shopping for under $800 total. You do not have to change out the ignition pickup in the nose cone, just the timing rotor. Stock ign modules are cheap. The wire harness is unobtainium (They do show up on occasion on fleabay) but not hard to make if you have the Deutch connector tools.
I would never go back to EFI on my EVO. Carb is so much better in my application. (If my bike had had Delphi EFI, I would have never considered the job, however. That could have been EASILY maintained and made to work. The MM was done for and not worth rebuilding and replacing.)
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 1,524
From: Coromandel Peninsula New Zealand
Simplest way to do the conversion is with a Thunderheart and a second hand CV....not cheap though but there is plenty of info on which jets to use.
Delphi is pretty reliable and easy to tune....MM....well, leave that to the purists who know how to deal with it....I don't and so I leave it alone.
Delphi is pretty reliable and easy to tune....MM....well, leave that to the purists who know how to deal with it....I don't and so I leave it alone.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,590
Likes: 444
From: Ohio
Just did the swap this spring. Swap meet and fleabay shopping. I was able to score a factory harness and a CV with the cruise arm. I also did a tank swap. It all came in less than $800. Absolutely worth it. After some motor work the M&M couldn't keep up so changing to carb was necessary. I do have the PC III left over if you need one.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,547
Likes: 7,153
From: Oxford, Nc
Just did the swap this spring. Swap meet and fleabay shopping. I was able to score a factory harness and a CV with the cruise arm. I also did a tank swap. It all came in less than $800. Absolutely worth it. After some motor work the M&M couldn't keep up so changing to carb was necessary. I do have the PC III left over if you need one.
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,557
Likes: 66
From: Oakdale Ca.
mm to carb
went from 80ci to 127ci I did the swap myself {shade tree mechanic} cost $240 for the ignition kit single fire , 65$ for the MM block off on the tank. I didnt need any new wiring kit but I removed a **** ton of wiring that was unused. My motor came with a super G so that cost was in the motor itself.... pretty easy. just needs to warm up so I can ride more.
Thread Starter
|
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,952
Likes: 15
From: Senoia, Ga., by way of Miami, Fl..
I'm leaning to PCIII for now, and have another question... Are the "red" injectors higher flow than the black ones? Necessary with a cam, pipes, air cleaner and PCIII??