Power Problem
Thread Starter
|
6th Gear
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Power Problem
Hey all,
Did a build on 2 bikes, '04 road king and '06 electraglide classic. Took 'em to 95 cid and installed S&S 585G cams and put power commanders on both. Put some miles on 'em and took both to the dyno back to back, same dyno same day. The '04 ran 60 hp and 85 tq while the '06 ran 85 hp and 96 tq. Here is a rundown of what we have done to find the solution. Changed plugs and wires,swapped exhaust between the 2 bikes,adjusted push rods,checked compression (165 back cylinder and 170 on the front), work was done at a shop so we pulled heads ourselves to verify it WAS a 95,pulled cam cover and verified cams are 585g (stamped on end of cam) and verified cam timing. Next step we are going to pull the cam plate and check the lobes for proper lift and to double check the cam chest. We have considered a bad injector however during the 4 dyno runs done on the bike the air:fuel ratio has held steady at 14:1. The bike feels good seat of the pants and runs 100 mph+ but the 20% power difference in the 2 bikes is huge considering the same parts. So....who has the magic answer? Thanks in advance.
VBP
Did a build on 2 bikes, '04 road king and '06 electraglide classic. Took 'em to 95 cid and installed S&S 585G cams and put power commanders on both. Put some miles on 'em and took both to the dyno back to back, same dyno same day. The '04 ran 60 hp and 85 tq while the '06 ran 85 hp and 96 tq. Here is a rundown of what we have done to find the solution. Changed plugs and wires,swapped exhaust between the 2 bikes,adjusted push rods,checked compression (165 back cylinder and 170 on the front), work was done at a shop so we pulled heads ourselves to verify it WAS a 95,pulled cam cover and verified cams are 585g (stamped on end of cam) and verified cam timing. Next step we are going to pull the cam plate and check the lobes for proper lift and to double check the cam chest. We have considered a bad injector however during the 4 dyno runs done on the bike the air:fuel ratio has held steady at 14:1. The bike feels good seat of the pants and runs 100 mph+ but the 20% power difference in the 2 bikes is huge considering the same parts. So....who has the magic answer? Thanks in advance.
VBP
Thread Starter
|
6th Gear
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
I am going to my dyno guy in the morning and get a new printout of both the dyno runs and the PC maps to compare. Will post the results. I am assuming they would be close given the same parts but I have been told there is a difference in the stock ECM between the two bikes. We shall see.
VBP
VBP
Sponsor
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,084
Likes: 829
Hey all,
Did a build on 2 bikes, '04 road king and '06 electraglide classic. Took 'em to 95 cid and installed S&S 585G cams and put power commanders on both. Put some miles on 'em and took both to the dyno back to back, same dyno same day. The '04 ran 60 hp and 85 tq while the '06 ran 85 hp and 96 tq. Here is a rundown of what we have done to find the solution. Changed plugs and wires,swapped exhaust between the 2 bikes,adjusted push rods,checked compression (165 back cylinder and 170 on the front), work was done at a shop so we pulled heads ourselves to verify it WAS a 95,pulled cam cover and verified cams are 585g (stamped on end of cam) and verified cam timing. Next step we are going to pull the cam plate and check the lobes for proper lift and to double check the cam chest. We have considered a bad injector however during the 4 dyno runs done on the bike the air:fuel ratio has held steady at 14:1. The bike feels good seat of the pants and runs 100 mph+ but the 20% power difference in the 2 bikes is huge considering the same parts. So....who has the magic answer? Thanks in advance.
VBP
Did a build on 2 bikes, '04 road king and '06 electraglide classic. Took 'em to 95 cid and installed S&S 585G cams and put power commanders on both. Put some miles on 'em and took both to the dyno back to back, same dyno same day. The '04 ran 60 hp and 85 tq while the '06 ran 85 hp and 96 tq. Here is a rundown of what we have done to find the solution. Changed plugs and wires,swapped exhaust between the 2 bikes,adjusted push rods,checked compression (165 back cylinder and 170 on the front), work was done at a shop so we pulled heads ourselves to verify it WAS a 95,pulled cam cover and verified cams are 585g (stamped on end of cam) and verified cam timing. Next step we are going to pull the cam plate and check the lobes for proper lift and to double check the cam chest. We have considered a bad injector however during the 4 dyno runs done on the bike the air:fuel ratio has held steady at 14:1. The bike feels good seat of the pants and runs 100 mph+ but the 20% power difference in the 2 bikes is huge considering the same parts. So....who has the magic answer? Thanks in advance.
VBP
How much oil carry-over, do you have in the cases on each??
Scott
Sponsor
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,084
Likes: 829
4-6 oz's is what you you should see.
8 is not the end of the world, but after that power losses start showing up.
At 16-18 oz's, we have witnessed as much as 25-30 hp loss, as the left side flywheel, that is machined/notched for the crank position sensor, acts like a paddlewheel, when wallowing around in that much oil.
The dyno report will a-typically have a good initial "strike", then as the rpm's build, the power will fall off, at about a 30 degree angle, or greater.
The culprit is, 99 times out of 100, the "O" ring behind the pump, causing bleed off into the cases.
Scott
8 is not the end of the world, but after that power losses start showing up.
At 16-18 oz's, we have witnessed as much as 25-30 hp loss, as the left side flywheel, that is machined/notched for the crank position sensor, acts like a paddlewheel, when wallowing around in that much oil.
The dyno report will a-typically have a good initial "strike", then as the rpm's build, the power will fall off, at about a 30 degree angle, or greater.
The culprit is, 99 times out of 100, the "O" ring behind the pump, causing bleed off into the cases.
Scott
Last edited by Hillsidecycle.com; Dec 28, 2010 at 08:03 AM.
Trending Topics
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,774
Likes: 2,606
From: san antonio
As others have suggested, I would be looking for sumping. A sumping motor also will tend to heat up faster and run hotter than a non-sumping motor. I have seen 26 oz. come out from a sumping 107" that had the wrong o-ring installed at the scavenge port. It's like dragging a boat anchor; have you ever tried to run in waist deep water? Same thing.
HD Forum Stories
The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles
Verdad Gallardo
8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In
Verdad Gallardo
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Verdad Gallardo
Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept
Verdad Gallardo
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Verdad Gallardo
10 Motorcycles You Should Never Buy
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Harley-Davidson Needs to Fix in 2026
Verdad Gallardo
Thread Starter
|
6th Gear
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Never heard the term "sumping". I have an assumption of what it is, can you explain it and how I go about checking it? I am thinking it means excess oil in the cam box, crankcase and or primary? I opened the cam box and got a very small amount of oil drainage, guessing a couple oz, not enough to cover the bottom of my drain pan.
VBP
VBP
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 225
Likes: 1
From: Boston area
"Sumping" is what happens when the oil pump is not scavenging the oil out of the engine case "sump". As Scott said, it is usualy caused by a dislodged O ring at the back of the oil pump. Carefully remove the pipe plug from the bottom of the engine case, and measure the amount of oil that comes out.