2005 Deuce Heads
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: san antonio
The 2005 heads, not just on the Deuce, were the worst. Intake was a tiny bit smaller but the real problem was valve guide seals. If you got a bad set, you will be using oil. If you are planning a 107, send them to the head porter of your choice and all will be OK.
You know you have to case bore to build a 107" in a 2005 model? If you do go that route, you should have the crank trued, balanced and welded and have the output crank bearing converted to the Timken piece.
Having been down that road, I suggest that you bore to 98", port your heads and install cams of your choice. A lot less money and there are some 98" packages making real good power. I believe Fuel Moto is working on their 88" to 98" upgrade packages now; soon to be available.
You know you have to case bore to build a 107" in a 2005 model? If you do go that route, you should have the crank trued, balanced and welded and have the output crank bearing converted to the Timken piece.
Having been down that road, I suggest that you bore to 98", port your heads and install cams of your choice. A lot less money and there are some 98" packages making real good power. I believe Fuel Moto is working on their 88" to 98" upgrade packages now; soon to be available.
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Joined: Apr 2007
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From: Seattle, WA
DJL
While I usually find your comments cogent and pretty well spot on, ... regretfully, I disagree that '05 were the worst ... I had seen this tech article on the Big Boyz website (backed up with some great photos) that refutes some of your points ...
"[The] differences between '05 Twin Cam heads and the previous 99-04 heads ... include 7mm valves, valve guides, springs, top collars, bottom collars (spring cup), keepers, and valve seals."
"The '05 heads with the, shorter valve guides, also have thinner valve stems that block the port less than the thicker stems in the earlier heads .... This means the Port has [considerably] less stuff in the way and actually yields a larger port volume with less obstruction. This is the case with both the intake and exhaust port ...."
"Valve Seals
The earlier valve seals were small press on metal seals. They have a single rubber seal/wiper. The '05 seals are much larger and are attached to the bottom spring collar. It uses a thicker rubber seal with many wiping ribs. Compare the Green arrows (Picture 5), this creates the seal around the valve stem. The seal is securely held down by the spring pressure on the bottom collar when installed."
"Summary
The '05 factory heads have more port volume and less port obstruction. The seals are positive locking and have a wider contact area. Less moving mass in the valve train. Stronger valve guides and keepers. Larger radius transition from the valve stem to the valve head. Greater potential for increased RPM's and higher valve lifts using stock parts."
http://bigboyzheadporting.com/showthread.php?t=91
* * *
Maybe some other experienced head guys will chime in ... but, I was very close to just having my '05 heads reworked (ported and polished, etc.) ....
R/
'Chop
While I usually find your comments cogent and pretty well spot on, ... regretfully, I disagree that '05 were the worst ... I had seen this tech article on the Big Boyz website (backed up with some great photos) that refutes some of your points ...
"[The] differences between '05 Twin Cam heads and the previous 99-04 heads ... include 7mm valves, valve guides, springs, top collars, bottom collars (spring cup), keepers, and valve seals."
"The '05 heads with the, shorter valve guides, also have thinner valve stems that block the port less than the thicker stems in the earlier heads .... This means the Port has [considerably] less stuff in the way and actually yields a larger port volume with less obstruction. This is the case with both the intake and exhaust port ...."
"Valve Seals
The earlier valve seals were small press on metal seals. They have a single rubber seal/wiper. The '05 seals are much larger and are attached to the bottom spring collar. It uses a thicker rubber seal with many wiping ribs. Compare the Green arrows (Picture 5), this creates the seal around the valve stem. The seal is securely held down by the spring pressure on the bottom collar when installed."
"Summary
The '05 factory heads have more port volume and less port obstruction. The seals are positive locking and have a wider contact area. Less moving mass in the valve train. Stronger valve guides and keepers. Larger radius transition from the valve stem to the valve head. Greater potential for increased RPM's and higher valve lifts using stock parts."
http://bigboyzheadporting.com/showthread.php?t=91
* * *
Maybe some other experienced head guys will chime in ... but, I was very close to just having my '05 heads reworked (ported and polished, etc.) ....
R/
'Chop
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: san antonio
No disrespect to you or Mr. Bean but we will just have to agree to disagree. I suspect that the information on the BigBoyz website was posted as soon as Bean got his hands on a set of '05 heads and before the problems developed.
All that information on the BigBoyz website not withstanding the intake valve in the '05 heads is 1.800"; the intake valve in all previous years was 1.840". Now you and BigBoyz may consider that in improvement but I don't.
Additionally, the MoCo issue a tech bulletin on the valve guide seals well into the model year and many, including mine, were replaced with the new seals under warranty.
I have lived it; new bike using a quart of oil in less than 1000 miles due to bad valve guide seals. Interestingly enough, Bean acknowledged the problems with the '05 heads when I sent mine to him for porting.
While I agree that the 7mm valves and associated components and the beehive sprngs were an improvement there were more problems, including warranty claims, with the '05 heads than in previous years or since. That is the basis for my opinion that the '05 heads are the worst. Stop and thinkabout it, how much more port volume to you think there really is because the valves are 7mm and the guides are millimeters shorter. Come on, you are smarter than to believe the difference in performance is measurable. Those improvements were far outweighed by the problems with guide seals. There is flow data that shows the earlier heads flow more from .500" to .550" of lift than the '05 heads.
Your heads will benefit greatly from porting. Bean's street port is good for at least 10TQ and 10HP, or more, if the chamber volume is right for the cams and the compresssion is right for the cams.
PS
FWIW, if you ask a head porter that ports by hand which casting he would prefer to work, I believe most will tell you '99-'04. Granted there are not many left as most have gone the CNC route.
All that information on the BigBoyz website not withstanding the intake valve in the '05 heads is 1.800"; the intake valve in all previous years was 1.840". Now you and BigBoyz may consider that in improvement but I don't.
Additionally, the MoCo issue a tech bulletin on the valve guide seals well into the model year and many, including mine, were replaced with the new seals under warranty.
I have lived it; new bike using a quart of oil in less than 1000 miles due to bad valve guide seals. Interestingly enough, Bean acknowledged the problems with the '05 heads when I sent mine to him for porting.
While I agree that the 7mm valves and associated components and the beehive sprngs were an improvement there were more problems, including warranty claims, with the '05 heads than in previous years or since. That is the basis for my opinion that the '05 heads are the worst. Stop and thinkabout it, how much more port volume to you think there really is because the valves are 7mm and the guides are millimeters shorter. Come on, you are smarter than to believe the difference in performance is measurable. Those improvements were far outweighed by the problems with guide seals. There is flow data that shows the earlier heads flow more from .500" to .550" of lift than the '05 heads.
Your heads will benefit greatly from porting. Bean's street port is good for at least 10TQ and 10HP, or more, if the chamber volume is right for the cams and the compresssion is right for the cams.
PS
FWIW, if you ask a head porter that ports by hand which casting he would prefer to work, I believe most will tell you '99-'04. Granted there are not many left as most have gone the CNC route.
Last edited by djl; Aug 4, 2011 at 08:59 AM.
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1.940-2.000" intake valves, with a 1.800" intake port diameter, DRAMATICALLY changes that casting into a head that'll support an even larger engine.
Can't tell you how many of those we have built, and BTW, have a set of used(about 1200 miles) Axtell cylinders, "Diamond Cut" if looking in that direction.
120 ft/lbs is VERY easy with a 107", and hp can easily exceed that, with the proper cam/compression/throttle body/pipe.
Stock up on rear tires!! hehe
Scott
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,919
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From: Seattle, WA
Not sure whether there were changes during the '05 production run that fixed some of the issues you point out ... my stock '05 heads did not lose oil through the valve guides ....
- admittedly, 1mm valve stem difference will not make a lot of difference in port volume ... but, the associated improvements (3-groove keeper design, less intrusive valve guide design, valve stem seal, not to mention less moving mass of the valve train) seem to be steps in the right direction to me ...
- I am not convinced a four-one-hundredths inch reduction of diameter in intake valve diameter from 99-04 to 05 would make that much of a 'bottleneck' between the motors ... I could be wrong (especially if other motor mods such as big bore and/or cams were involved) ... seems it would possibly show more low-end than the earlier models heads (theoretically) ...?
Uh ... I don't really have a 'dog in the fight' anymore, in a manner of speaking, as I've replaced my stock '05 Dyna Super Glide heads with Screamin Eagle MCR Performance Heads ....
Your experience notwithstanding, it would seem that from an objective standpoint at least some of the changes to the '05 heads should be considered improvements ....
I suppose the best course of action for keywestwillie would be to examine his heads to see if they more closely resemble yours or the ones on the BigBoyz web tutorial ....
If the latter, then maybe he should send them out for a street port ....
R/
'Chop
- admittedly, 1mm valve stem difference will not make a lot of difference in port volume ... but, the associated improvements (3-groove keeper design, less intrusive valve guide design, valve stem seal, not to mention less moving mass of the valve train) seem to be steps in the right direction to me ...
- I am not convinced a four-one-hundredths inch reduction of diameter in intake valve diameter from 99-04 to 05 would make that much of a 'bottleneck' between the motors ... I could be wrong (especially if other motor mods such as big bore and/or cams were involved) ... seems it would possibly show more low-end than the earlier models heads (theoretically) ...?
Uh ... I don't really have a 'dog in the fight' anymore, in a manner of speaking, as I've replaced my stock '05 Dyna Super Glide heads with Screamin Eagle MCR Performance Heads ....
Your experience notwithstanding, it would seem that from an objective standpoint at least some of the changes to the '05 heads should be considered improvements ....
I suppose the best course of action for keywestwillie would be to examine his heads to see if they more closely resemble yours or the ones on the BigBoyz web tutorial ....
If the latter, then maybe he should send them out for a street port ....
R/
'Chop
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,774
Likes: 2,606
From: san antonio
I totally agree that the changes you refer to were improvements but many owner of '05 models were plagued with excessive oil consumption which over shadowed any improvements in the head assembly. The real improvement came the next year; the '06 heads flow about 127cfm at .500" lift (10") compared to 115cfm for the '05s and 118 ror the '99-'04s.
There were changes near the end of the production year, i.e., a different valve seal, that solved the problem. The MoCo wasn't forthcoming with the consumer about the problem but anyone bringing an '05 in with excesssive oil consumption, within the warranty period, could get relief.
My issues with the '05 heads were the leaky valve guide seals and lower flow from .500" to .550" lift compared with earlier heads. They will not support the 107, Wood cams build keywestwillie is planning; he doesn't need to examine his '05 heads, he needs to have them ported.
There were changes near the end of the production year, i.e., a different valve seal, that solved the problem. The MoCo wasn't forthcoming with the consumer about the problem but anyone bringing an '05 in with excesssive oil consumption, within the warranty period, could get relief.
My issues with the '05 heads were the leaky valve guide seals and lower flow from .500" to .550" lift compared with earlier heads. They will not support the 107, Wood cams build keywestwillie is planning; he doesn't need to examine his '05 heads, he needs to have them ported.
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HDF Community Team
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From: san antonio
Last edited by djl; Aug 4, 2011 at 08:58 PM.
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Intermediate
Joined: Jun 2010
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Thanks guys, who have given me a crash course on due diligence. I have
some homework to do before I commit my funds. I'm only a couple of hours
from Wood Cams and he spoke highly of Rod's Performance. Any one have
other suggestions for a builder in the Atlanta area.
some homework to do before I commit my funds. I'm only a couple of hours
from Wood Cams and he spoke highly of Rod's Performance. Any one have
other suggestions for a builder in the Atlanta area.
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