FF Study
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Road Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 34
From: Ca
FF Study
FYI. Although all motorcycle traffic accident studies don’t go deep enough, the worst being government accident reports, I finally found a study that supports my personal experience of why not to wear a full face helmet.
Specifically, while a FF protects more of the head in a head accident, the riding safety it trades away is a danger to be considered. The more frontal coverage the worse it is, and more is getting more popular, or at least more advertised.
I’m posting this for awareness. This seems to be a little known caution. The FF seems to be growing in popularity/acceptance/coolness. I hope it’s not just because “racers use it”, or “of course it’s the safest”. Over 50 some years I’ve had lots of great rides with no helmet, ľ, and FF. I started using a FF to be “safer” a few years ago like many others. However after a year of repeatedly recognizing danger I’d not had before (or since) I stopped.
Ride Safe.
https://ir.uiowa.edu/drivingassessment/2015/papers/10/
Hopefully where you live you still have the option of no lid along with all the way from flip flops to lime atgatt, & black bike to lime with multi-lights/air horn/guard bars/air bags, depending on the ride, personal skills/experience/preference, and training.
Specifically, while a FF protects more of the head in a head accident, the riding safety it trades away is a danger to be considered. The more frontal coverage the worse it is, and more is getting more popular, or at least more advertised.
I’m posting this for awareness. This seems to be a little known caution. The FF seems to be growing in popularity/acceptance/coolness. I hope it’s not just because “racers use it”, or “of course it’s the safest”. Over 50 some years I’ve had lots of great rides with no helmet, ľ, and FF. I started using a FF to be “safer” a few years ago like many others. However after a year of repeatedly recognizing danger I’d not had before (or since) I stopped.
Ride Safe.
https://ir.uiowa.edu/drivingassessment/2015/papers/10/
Hopefully where you live you still have the option of no lid along with all the way from flip flops to lime atgatt, & black bike to lime with multi-lights/air horn/guard bars/air bags, depending on the ride, personal skills/experience/preference, and training.
Tourer
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 391
Likes: 176
From: Leicestershire, United Kingdom
There was a similar study forty years ago in UK which demonstrated that speed perception was better with an open face helmet, and that accidents were therefore less likely; so at the time I switched from full face to open face and loved it. But it is a trade-off: you're less likely to have an accident with an open face, but more likely to survive an accident with a full face. Having had a slide last year due to a motorcycle fault rather than my speed or field of view, and having seen the damage on my full face that would have been on my my face if I hadn't been wearing it, these days I'm committed to using full face. I reckon my decades of riding experience enables me to compensate for any lack of vision or speed perception anyway. But I do understand the benefits of open face.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,791
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From: Smalltown,USA
I live in a choice state and that's how it should be. The test should really ask how many had a MC rider safety course verse none. My state just checked and most riders killed had no endorsement
riding on learners permit. What they want to do is make it you can't renew your plates without your mc endorsement.
riding on learners permit. What they want to do is make it you can't renew your plates without your mc endorsement.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,456
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From: SW FL-Jersey Shore Emigre
"The task consisted of negotiating curves in a fixed-based simulator while the helmet visor vertical dimension and need to check the handlebar-mounted speedometer were manipulated "
I don't know about you or these "researchers", but when I ride, I look where I want to go, especially while negotiating a curve; I'm NOT checking the speedometer.
And I always wear a FF, anything less is crazy IMHO. YMMV
I don't know about you or these "researchers", but when I ride, I look where I want to go, especially while negotiating a curve; I'm NOT checking the speedometer.
And I always wear a FF, anything less is crazy IMHO. YMMV
Banned
Joined: Oct 2009
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From: Nowhere
So, in other words... you are admitting that you are cherry picking data. 
You realize that this "study" you are citing is all simulator data, right? What does the real world data say? Answer: helmets save lives and reduce brain injuries; FF and open face helmets do this better than half helmets. A FF helmet offers more protection, both from the elements and from frontal impacts. These are the facts.
You realize that this "study" you are citing is all simulator data, right? What does the real world data say? Answer: helmets save lives and reduce brain injuries; FF and open face helmets do this better than half helmets. A FF helmet offers more protection, both from the elements and from frontal impacts. These are the facts.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,008
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From: Great State of Texas
I don't know about all the statistics. My belief is that each rider must consider his/her risk factor based on the way they ride along with his/her skill factor. Unfortunately, most riders believe their motorcycle skill factor is greater than average when in fact it isn't.
Those who have taken MSF basic and advanced classes know exactly what I mean. At the beginning of any class there is always one who brags how long they have been riding, yet once on the training field it's obvious to everyone else their riding skills remain lacking. In fact, over 80% of motorcycle riders in the US believe their riding skills are "Better than average".
Rider #1 is a true skilled rider who practices often, knows his limits, uses good road positioning and rides within his true limits. He is most likely safer wearing flip flops, cut offs and no helmet, compared to:
Rider #2 who is in full gear and FF helmet yet has no clue what he/she is doing. Sure, ATGATT is safer but it won't keep you from being killed in every accident especially if the rider feels bulletproof because of the gear.
Now when rider #1 adds all gear and FF helmet and still rides with the same mindset, his chances rise overwhelmingly higher.
Most killed in M/C accidents have been riding less than 6 months, most of which don't even have a M/C endorsement. I know guys who have been riding 30+ years who can't make an 18' U-Turn on a full size bagger without putting their feet down yet they brag on their skills and how long they have been riding.
Bottom line. Gear is good but skills are better, especially if the skilled rider has the mindset of constantly learning and improving.
Those who have taken MSF basic and advanced classes know exactly what I mean. At the beginning of any class there is always one who brags how long they have been riding, yet once on the training field it's obvious to everyone else their riding skills remain lacking. In fact, over 80% of motorcycle riders in the US believe their riding skills are "Better than average".
Rider #1 is a true skilled rider who practices often, knows his limits, uses good road positioning and rides within his true limits. He is most likely safer wearing flip flops, cut offs and no helmet, compared to:
Rider #2 who is in full gear and FF helmet yet has no clue what he/she is doing. Sure, ATGATT is safer but it won't keep you from being killed in every accident especially if the rider feels bulletproof because of the gear.
Now when rider #1 adds all gear and FF helmet and still rides with the same mindset, his chances rise overwhelmingly higher.
Most killed in M/C accidents have been riding less than 6 months, most of which don't even have a M/C endorsement. I know guys who have been riding 30+ years who can't make an 18' U-Turn on a full size bagger without putting their feet down yet they brag on their skills and how long they have been riding.
Bottom line. Gear is good but skills are better, especially if the skilled rider has the mindset of constantly learning and improving.
Last edited by Cbyway; Nov 10, 2018 at 07:26 AM.
Banned
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From: Nowhere
True. But... you know what they say... sh*t happens. Better to wear the gear and not need it than not wear it and your family wish you did.
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Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: South Florida
Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. Also it was GREAT that the read was short and to the point.
If it is so, then how about just making the opening larger........? Maybe that would help.
BuzzCap7
If it is so, then how about just making the opening larger........? Maybe that would help.
BuzzCap7
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From: Great State of Texas
Originally Posted by keith_stepp
True. But... you know what they say... sh*t happens. Better to wear the gear and not need it than not wear it and your family wish you did.
Last edited by Cbyway; Nov 10, 2018 at 07:32 AM.
Tourer
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 379
Likes: 102
From: Illinois
One thing I didn't like about this study was the rider was on a fixed position with a 130 degree horizontal view. That won't give a ride a full 180 degree side to side peripheral view. I think that would have been a more useful test. It's a start but the report is a little weak for me. I wrote a paper in grad schedule about helmet laws and though the paper always comments on whether the rider had a helmet or not, the lack of helmet may not have been the cause of death. Potentially the rider had their femoral artery cut when the bike fell on them and they bleed out. Maybe the rider was blunt force trauma to the chest but their head was completely fine. The motorcycle statistics don't do a good job of breaking out the cause of death, just that there was a death.
Also, during my research, I found a paper that stated that 1: full face helmets do decrease peripheral vision (I forget the degree - it was small), 2: a full face helmet will protect your head up to 15 mph crash but above that, there was an increase to neck injury because of the weight of th helmet and the whiplash associated with the impact.
Disclaimer: this study was done in the 80's so it is horribly outdated to today as I just quickly found an article published in 2016 that trumps this research.
Back to the point on hand. I just moved to a full face from a half and I do notice a loss in peripheral vision. As mentioned, I think if they just made the cutout a little further back, that could solve the problem.