MOCO targeting the wealthy
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 10,037
Likes: 10,771
From: SE Michigan
i have absolutely no reason to hate harley and root for their demise....i'm hoping for good things
if they get a bit more expensive, or the brand pivots toward older riders with disposable cash.....that is me for the next 30-40 years, anyhow
I'm in
if they get a bit more expensive, or the brand pivots toward older riders with disposable cash.....that is me for the next 30-40 years, anyhow
I'm in
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 35,833
Likes: 38,737
From: Post Falls, ID
HD has always been an "aspirational" brand that targets the wealthy.
The big bike focus must mean the end of the Sportster, Bronx, Street and Livewire.
Aren't products that target the wealthy one of the reasons for Antifa and BLM?
I thought HD was trying to be woke.
The big bike focus must mean the end of the Sportster, Bronx, Street and Livewire.
Aren't products that target the wealthy one of the reasons for Antifa and BLM?
I thought HD was trying to be woke.
It's an audacious goal.
The point, as I see it anyway, isn't that HD's and Ferraris are in any way comparable as vehicles. What they are saying is that they want Ferrari's margins.
And who wouldn't? That's the whole point of positioning yourself as a premium, luxury brand. People will pay all the money just to be a part of it.
Ferrari doesn't sell cars. Chevrolet and Toyota sell cars. Ferrari sells Ferraris.
Their numbers are ridiculous. Ferrari only sells about 8,500 cars per year, but manages to average about $80,000 in gross margin on each one. That's how you end up with a small, boutique manufacturer being listed on the NYSE and having a market capitalization of over $47 billion. (In comparison, HD's market capitalization is just over $4 billion.)
The new Corvette is an amazing car. If it was a Ferrari, it would be a $250k+ car. But it's a Chevrolet, so it sells for less than a third of that. That's the power of a luxury brand.
Apple is the most amazing company in history. They've done something no company has ever done before: They have Ferrari's margins, while having Toyota's sales volume and production costs. That isn't supposed to be possible, but Apple did it. And they are piling up an absurd amount of cash, month after month, with no end in sight.
That's what this new initiative is all about, IMHO. They are saying something like "We're not just another motorcycle company that is forced to compete with every other motorcycle company on price and features. We are Harley-f'ing-Davidson. We are the most iconic, global, motorcycle brand in history. That name is worth money, so let's go get it. Our market isn't people who want motorcycles. Our market is people who want Harley Davidsons".
Personally, I don't know if this strategy is possible. And if it is, I don't know if they are capable of pulling it off.
But I think that's what this initiative is about.
The point, as I see it anyway, isn't that HD's and Ferraris are in any way comparable as vehicles. What they are saying is that they want Ferrari's margins.
And who wouldn't? That's the whole point of positioning yourself as a premium, luxury brand. People will pay all the money just to be a part of it.
Ferrari doesn't sell cars. Chevrolet and Toyota sell cars. Ferrari sells Ferraris.
Their numbers are ridiculous. Ferrari only sells about 8,500 cars per year, but manages to average about $80,000 in gross margin on each one. That's how you end up with a small, boutique manufacturer being listed on the NYSE and having a market capitalization of over $47 billion. (In comparison, HD's market capitalization is just over $4 billion.)
The new Corvette is an amazing car. If it was a Ferrari, it would be a $250k+ car. But it's a Chevrolet, so it sells for less than a third of that. That's the power of a luxury brand.
Apple is the most amazing company in history. They've done something no company has ever done before: They have Ferrari's margins, while having Toyota's sales volume and production costs. That isn't supposed to be possible, but Apple did it. And they are piling up an absurd amount of cash, month after month, with no end in sight.
That's what this new initiative is all about, IMHO. They are saying something like "We're not just another motorcycle company that is forced to compete with every other motorcycle company on price and features. We are Harley-f'ing-Davidson. We are the most iconic, global, motorcycle brand in history. That name is worth money, so let's go get it. Our market isn't people who want motorcycles. Our market is people who want Harley Davidsons".
Personally, I don't know if this strategy is possible. And if it is, I don't know if they are capable of pulling it off.
But I think that's what this initiative is about.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,635
Likes: 594
From: Alabama
It's an audacious goal.
The point, as I see it anyway, isn't that HD's and Ferraris are in any way comparable as vehicles. What they are saying is that they want Ferrari's margins.
And who wouldn't? That's the whole point of positioning yourself as a premium, luxury brand. People will pay all the money just to be a part of it.
Ferrari doesn't sell cars. Chevrolet and Toyota sell cars. Ferrari sells Ferraris.
Their numbers are ridiculous. Ferrari only sells about 8,500 cars per year, but manages to average about $80,000 in gross margin on each one. That's how you end up with a small, boutique manufacturer being listed on the NYSE and having a market capitalization of over $47 billion. (In comparison, HD's market capitalization is just over $4 billion.)
The new Corvette is an amazing car. If it was a Ferrari, it would be a $250k+ car. But it's a Chevrolet, so it sells for less than a third of that. That's the power of a luxury brand.
Apple is the most amazing company in history. They've done something no company has ever done before: They have Ferrari's margins, while having Toyota's sales volume and production costs. That isn't supposed to be possible, but Apple did it. And they are piling up an absurd amount of cash, month after month, with no end in sight.
That's what this new initiative is all about, IMHO. They are saying something like "We're not just another motorcycle company that is forced to compete with every other motorcycle company on price and features. We are Harley-f'ing-Davidson. We are the most iconic, global, motorcycle brand in history. That name is worth money, so let's go get it. Our market isn't people who want motorcycles. Our market is people who want Harley Davidsons".
Personally, I don't know if this strategy is possible. And if it is, I don't know if they are capable of pulling it off.
But I think that's what this initiative is about.
The point, as I see it anyway, isn't that HD's and Ferraris are in any way comparable as vehicles. What they are saying is that they want Ferrari's margins.
And who wouldn't? That's the whole point of positioning yourself as a premium, luxury brand. People will pay all the money just to be a part of it.
Ferrari doesn't sell cars. Chevrolet and Toyota sell cars. Ferrari sells Ferraris.
Their numbers are ridiculous. Ferrari only sells about 8,500 cars per year, but manages to average about $80,000 in gross margin on each one. That's how you end up with a small, boutique manufacturer being listed on the NYSE and having a market capitalization of over $47 billion. (In comparison, HD's market capitalization is just over $4 billion.)
The new Corvette is an amazing car. If it was a Ferrari, it would be a $250k+ car. But it's a Chevrolet, so it sells for less than a third of that. That's the power of a luxury brand.
Apple is the most amazing company in history. They've done something no company has ever done before: They have Ferrari's margins, while having Toyota's sales volume and production costs. That isn't supposed to be possible, but Apple did it. And they are piling up an absurd amount of cash, month after month, with no end in sight.
That's what this new initiative is all about, IMHO. They are saying something like "We're not just another motorcycle company that is forced to compete with every other motorcycle company on price and features. We are Harley-f'ing-Davidson. We are the most iconic, global, motorcycle brand in history. That name is worth money, so let's go get it. Our market isn't people who want motorcycles. Our market is people who want Harley Davidsons".
Personally, I don't know if this strategy is possible. And if it is, I don't know if they are capable of pulling it off.
But I think that's what this initiative is about.
Tourer
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 293
Likes: 179
From: Paducah
The main reason young people aren't buying the LiveWire is price. And poor dealer support. And limited range. Anybody know sales figures for this year?
https://www.webbikeworld.com/2020-ha...vewire-review/
https://www.webbikeworld.com/2020-ha...vewire-review/
And it isnt like H-D hasnt been catering to current customers with its products even during the Livewire development. every time they get an idea to break out of the same old, same old box they kill the idea before it takes off because making street glides that are exactly like the street glides from 5 years ago is more important.
Tourer
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 293
Likes: 179
From: Paducah
It's an audacious goal.
The point, as I see it anyway, isn't that HD's and Ferraris are in any way comparable as vehicles. What they are saying is that they want Ferrari's margins.
And who wouldn't? That's the whole point of positioning yourself as a premium, luxury brand. People will pay all the money just to be a part of it.
Ferrari doesn't sell cars. Chevrolet and Toyota sell cars. Ferrari sells Ferraris.
Their numbers are ridiculous. Ferrari only sells about 8,500 cars per year, but manages to average about $80,000 in gross margin on each one. That's how you end up with a small, boutique manufacturer being listed on the NYSE and having a market capitalization of over $47 billion. (In comparison, HD's market capitalization is just over $4 billion.)
The new Corvette is an amazing car. If it was a Ferrari, it would be a $250k+ car. But it's a Chevrolet, so it sells for less than a third of that. That's the power of a luxury brand.
Apple is the most amazing company in history. They've done something no company has ever done before: They have Ferrari's margins, while having Toyota's sales volume and production costs. That isn't supposed to be possible, but Apple did it. And they are piling up an absurd amount of cash, month after month, with no end in sight.
That's what this new initiative is all about, IMHO. They are saying something like "We're not just another motorcycle company that is forced to compete with every other motorcycle company on price and features. We are Harley-f'ing-Davidson. We are the most iconic, global, motorcycle brand in history. That name is worth money, so let's go get it. Our market isn't people who want motorcycles. Our market is people who want Harley Davidsons".
Personally, I don't know if this strategy is possible. And if it is, I don't know if they are capable of pulling it off.
But I think that's what this initiative is about.
The point, as I see it anyway, isn't that HD's and Ferraris are in any way comparable as vehicles. What they are saying is that they want Ferrari's margins.
And who wouldn't? That's the whole point of positioning yourself as a premium, luxury brand. People will pay all the money just to be a part of it.
Ferrari doesn't sell cars. Chevrolet and Toyota sell cars. Ferrari sells Ferraris.
Their numbers are ridiculous. Ferrari only sells about 8,500 cars per year, but manages to average about $80,000 in gross margin on each one. That's how you end up with a small, boutique manufacturer being listed on the NYSE and having a market capitalization of over $47 billion. (In comparison, HD's market capitalization is just over $4 billion.)
The new Corvette is an amazing car. If it was a Ferrari, it would be a $250k+ car. But it's a Chevrolet, so it sells for less than a third of that. That's the power of a luxury brand.
Apple is the most amazing company in history. They've done something no company has ever done before: They have Ferrari's margins, while having Toyota's sales volume and production costs. That isn't supposed to be possible, but Apple did it. And they are piling up an absurd amount of cash, month after month, with no end in sight.
That's what this new initiative is all about, IMHO. They are saying something like "We're not just another motorcycle company that is forced to compete with every other motorcycle company on price and features. We are Harley-f'ing-Davidson. We are the most iconic, global, motorcycle brand in history. That name is worth money, so let's go get it. Our market isn't people who want motorcycles. Our market is people who want Harley Davidsons".
Personally, I don't know if this strategy is possible. And if it is, I don't know if they are capable of pulling it off.
But I think that's what this initiative is about.
Harley doesnt do any of that.
Banned
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 23,816
Likes: 57,355
From: Tampa, FL
20 years ago you could not get me to buy a Harley Davidson. They were too expensive, slow, lacked good suspension & brakes plus you had to pay more at the dealer to "make them run right". I liked fast sport bikes. Harleys were old fat guys. 20 years later I became an old fat guy who now appreciates the benefits of a Harley motorcycle, the dealership network and they (used to) hold their value.
The same can occur unless the youngsters aren't into motorcycles at all.
The same can occur unless the youngsters aren't into motorcycles at all.
That's exactly the sort of linear thinking that ran the previous management team into the ground.
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,184
Likes: 837
From: KMHT KFMY
Disagree.
Electrics are not prolific enough. Yes, I know about Tesla. Where are all the charging stations? How long to charge? Feh. I am not buying any electric crap.
I flew electric RC aircraft. Different concept. It is a toy.
Not saying HD will sell as many big bikes. The entire bike business has been slow because this country has brainwashed the younger folks into stupidity and incompetence. Most cannot even ride a bicycle, let alone a motorcycle.
Electrics are not prolific enough. Yes, I know about Tesla. Where are all the charging stations? How long to charge? Feh. I am not buying any electric crap.
I flew electric RC aircraft. Different concept. It is a toy.
Not saying HD will sell as many big bikes. The entire bike business has been slow because this country has brainwashed the younger folks into stupidity and incompetence. Most cannot even ride a bicycle, let alone a motorcycle.
Between limited distance and infrastructure, they are not viable for anything but local travel, and the cost is prohibitive.
When I said America has fallen out of love with the internal combustion engine, my point was we are no longer a car culture as we were for decades.
The car was a status symbol, every kid wanted his or her license the minute they could get it, we dreamed of our first car.
Today a car is nothing more than another appliance, no different from the Fridge or dishwasher.
Unless you are a gear head nobody cares, all the cars are interchangeable
When was the last time you had a good Ford vs Chevy debate?
When was the last time you saw a kid with a dirt bike or a mini bike? A go cart?
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,635
Likes: 594
From: Alabama
What age group/generation has disposable income?
There you go.
These ain't iPhones.
These are closer to Ferraris.
If you can get a Harley big twin price down to 10K, then you may have a chance with the youth.
But that cannot happen.
There you go.
These ain't iPhones.
These are closer to Ferraris.
If you can get a Harley big twin price down to 10K, then you may have a chance with the youth.
But that cannot happen.