overdoing it
Intermediate
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
From: Anchorage AK
RE: overdoing it
The only thing I could disagree in the Regulations ( PACAF ), is that a new rider is limited toa bike under 650cc. That would not allow a new rider to even buy a Harley. I know a few new riders that wanted a Sportster but could not buy them due to the regulations.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 13,389
Likes: 26
From: Windham,Maine
RE: overdoing it
It is only because there are so many that ain't got a clue.It will always be that way,we as group just have to try and stay ahead of the zealots and all the laws and restrictions they seem to want to write.That by the way never seem to get the results they are after.
Road Captain
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 746
Likes: 1
From: Darlington, MD
RE: overdoing it
I'm not military, however do contract work on base. I'm required to wear a "high visibility upper garment w/ long sleeves ( NO PT BELTS ), gloves full finger and over the wrist, boots over the ankle, DOT head protection (loosley enforced). Not a big deal, sucks when it's 90+ deg.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 23,001
Likes: 11,441
RE: overdoing it
An injury on the last deployment ended my service I was medically retired in Nov.
I will find the regs and post them. However The commanding officer can at any time enforce stricter standards.
As for the Air Force person that said they can notenforce it because they do not issue it , I have news for him BS. And another BS. Man would I love to be there when he told My CO (OR ME)that line I need a good laugh
The reg requires
1. Motorcycle safety course Must be approved course can be basic or advanced.
Post do setup and pay for the cousre out of MWR funds but limited number of seats
2. Helmet,boots gloves protective eye wear even with windsheildand Relflective Item ??? lot of wiggle room here.
it does not say what a jacket is.
3. each year unit CO is requiered to do a motorcycle safety brief. That started in 2007
4. REGS apply to active duty at all times 24/7 365 on or off post.
5. Guard and Res when in duty status and to and from drills.
These regs have been around for the most part for many years just not enforced.
Top was busted in 1975 for not follwing one of them when I visited a post fortraing.
As leaders it is NOt up to us to question regs in public, we must be seen as one with the command. Soldiers get enough mixed message for the rest of the world.
We must also follow them ourself at all times or not ride.
I will find the regs and post them. However The commanding officer can at any time enforce stricter standards.
As for the Air Force person that said they can notenforce it because they do not issue it , I have news for him BS. And another BS. Man would I love to be there when he told My CO (OR ME)that line I need a good laugh
The reg requires
1. Motorcycle safety course Must be approved course can be basic or advanced.
Post do setup and pay for the cousre out of MWR funds but limited number of seats
2. Helmet,boots gloves protective eye wear even with windsheildand Relflective Item ??? lot of wiggle room here.
it does not say what a jacket is.
3. each year unit CO is requiered to do a motorcycle safety brief. That started in 2007
4. REGS apply to active duty at all times 24/7 365 on or off post.
5. Guard and Res when in duty status and to and from drills.
These regs have been around for the most part for many years just not enforced.
Top was busted in 1975 for not follwing one of them when I visited a post fortraing.
As leaders it is NOt up to us to question regs in public, we must be seen as one with the command. Soldiers get enough mixed message for the rest of the world.
We must also follow them ourself at all times or not ride.
Road Captain
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 681
Likes: 0
From: Red&Black World
RE: overdoing it
Maj Franklin,
SIR
Rock of the Marne first of all.
Just wait until you deploy and return to find your bike off limits until you take a re-fresher MSF course. I have taken 3 regular courses and 2 advanced riders courses. I have been riding on the road for 16years. I own several motorcycles all registerd road legal. Never had a speeding ticket on a bike either. Hell my car is MUCH faster than my Harley. I dont have to re-do drivers training to drive when I get there. I dont have a problem wearing my vest or gloves or boots or pants or helmet at all. But to tell me I cant ride until I wait on the Army to figure out how to get us into this course for the 6th time for me seems like a waste of my riding timeand life. However as an NCO. I will do the correct thing. I am a non-Commissioned officer a leader!
I will not bring discredit
SIR
Rock of the Marne first of all.
Just wait until you deploy and return to find your bike off limits until you take a re-fresher MSF course. I have taken 3 regular courses and 2 advanced riders courses. I have been riding on the road for 16years. I own several motorcycles all registerd road legal. Never had a speeding ticket on a bike either. Hell my car is MUCH faster than my Harley. I dont have to re-do drivers training to drive when I get there. I dont have a problem wearing my vest or gloves or boots or pants or helmet at all. But to tell me I cant ride until I wait on the Army to figure out how to get us into this course for the 6th time for me seems like a waste of my riding timeand life. However as an NCO. I will do the correct thing. I am a non-Commissioned officer a leader!
I will not bring discredit
No one is more professional than I. I am a Noncommissioned Officer, a leader of soldiers. As a Noncommissioned Officer, I realize that I am a member of a time honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the Army". I am proud of the Corps of Noncommissioned Officers and will at all times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Military Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find myself. I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety.
Competence is my watchword. My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind -- accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient. I am aware of my role as a Noncommissioned Officer. I will fulfill my responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership. I know my soldiers and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties; they will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and confidence as well as that of my soldiers. I will be loyal to those with whom I serve; seniors, peers, and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by taking appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget that we are professionals, Noncommissioned Officers, leaders!
I WILL COMPLY WITH MY ORDERS!!!!
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 23,001
Likes: 11,441
RE: overdoing it
Well said SOLDIER am if more thought like you do we would have never gotten to this point
Now here some reading for the others
From: ou
A PENTAGON TELECOMMUNICATIONS(uc),ou:ALARACT RELEASE AUTHORITY(uc)
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:41 PM
To: AL ALARACT(uc)
Subject: ALARACT 010/2005
Importance: Low
UNCLASSIFIED//
THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN SENT BY THE PENTAGON TELECOMMUNICATIONS CENTER ON BEHALF OF DA WASHINGTON DC//DACS-SF//
SUBJECT: MOTORCYCLE SAFETY TRAINING AND OPERATING REQUIREMENTS
DIRECTOR OF ARMY SAFETY SENDS
A. DODI 6055.4, DOD TRAFFIC SAFETY PROGRAM
B. AR 385-55, PREVENTION OF MOTOR VEHICLE ACCIDENTS
C. ARMY SAFETY CAMPAIGN PLAN, APR 04
D. MSG, OCT 02, MOTORCYCLE SAFETY TRAINING AND OPERATING REQUIREMENTS
1. ARMY LEADERS MUST TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION IN RESPONSE TO AN ESCALATING LOSS OF SOLDIERS' LIVES TO MOTORCYCLE ACCIDENTS. NINE SOLDIERS HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES IN MOTORCYCLE ACCIDENTS DURING THE FIRST 2 MONTHS OF FY 05; 22 LIVES WERE LOST IN FY 04.
2. IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT COMMANDERS THOROUGHLY UNDERSTAND AND CONTINUE TO STRINGENTLY ENFORCE THE LONG-STANDING MOTORCYCLE SAFETY REQUIREMENTS CONTAINED IN REFERENCES A AND B ABOVE. SOLDIERS' LIVES CAN BE SAVED WITH USE OF THE ARMY MANAGEMENT INFORMATION SYSTEM-1 (ASMIS-1) PRIVATELY OWNED VEHICLE (POV) MODULE, AND ACCOUNTABILITY FOR UNDESIRABLE BEHAVIOR.
3. TRAINING:
A. THE TRAINING STANDARD IS THE MOTORCYCLE SAFETY FOUNDATION (MSF) OR MSF- BASED, STATE-APPROVED CURRICULUM TAUGHT BY CERTIFIED OR LICENSED INSTRUCTORS. HANDS-ON TRAINING AND A PERFORMANCE-BASED AND KNOWLEDGE-BASED EVALUATION ARE REQUIRED.
B. SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF PRESCRIBED MOTORCYCLE SAFETY TRAINING IS MANDATORY FOR ALL SOLDIERS OPERATING MOTORCYCLES ON OR OFF POST, ON OR OFF DUTY, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE MOTORCYCLE IS REGISTERED ON POST. SOLDIERS MUST BE IN POSSESSION OF AN MSF CARD WHEN THEY RIDE TO VERIFY COMPLETION OF TRAINING.
4. PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT AND CLOTHING (PPEC). RECOMMEND COMMANDERS REVIEW CURRENT REGULATIONS AS REFERENCED IN A AND B ABOVE, AND ENSURE ENFORCEMENT OF THE FOLLOWING:
A. SOLDIERS CONTINUE TO FALSELY BELIEVE THEY ARE NOT REQUIRED TO WEAR A HELMET OR OTHER PPEC IF THE STATE IN WHICH THEY OPERATE THEIR BIKE DOES NOT REQUIRE IT. FURTHERMORE, SOLDIERS ARE OFTEN OBSERVED WEARING THE REQUIRED PPEC WHILE RIDING ON POST, AND THEN REMOVING IT AFTER THEY DRIVE OFF POST. REGULATORY REQUIREMENTS APPLY TO ALL ACTIVE DUTY SOLDIERS OPERATING MOTORCYCLES ON OR OFF POST, ON OR OFF DUTY, REGARDLESS OF PERMANENT OR TRANSITORY STATUS, AND REGARDLESS OF LOCAL OR STATE LAWS. THEY ALSO APPLY TO ALL ARMY NATIONAL GUARD AND RESERVE COMPONENT SOLDIERS WHEN IN A DUTY STATUS (INDIVIDUAL DEVELOPMENTAL TRAINING, ADVANCED INDIVIDUAL TRAINING, ANNUAL TRAINING, AND TITLE 10 AND TITLE 32 STATUS). COMMANDERS MUST ENSURE THIS IS CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD.
B. REQUIRED PPEC ARE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION (DOT) CERTIFIED HELMET, IMPACT OR SHATTER RESISTANT GOGGLES OR FULL FACE SHIELD PROPERLY ATTACHED TO THE HELMET, STURDY OVER-THE-ANKLE FOOTWEAR, LONG SLEEVED SHIRT OR JACKET, LONG TROUSERS, FULL-FINGERED GLOVES OR MITTENS DESIGNED FOR USE ON MOTORCYCLE, BRIGHTLY COLORED OUTER UPPER GARMENT DURING THE DAY AND A RETRO-REFLECTIVE UPPER GARMENT DURING THE NIGHT. OUTER UPPER GARMENT SHALL BE CLEARLY VISIBLE AND NOT COVERED BY BACKPACKS OR OTHER OBSTRUCTIONS. SOLDIERS WHO WEAR A REFLECTIVE BELT SHOULD WEAR IT DIAGONALLY ACROSS THE TORSO TO ENSURE MAXIMUM VISIBILITY. COMMANDERS SHOULD ENSURE PPEC REQUIREMENTS ARE ENFORCED AT INSTALLATION GATE CHECKPOINTS.
C. OPERATORS MUST ENSURE THAT THEIR PASSENGERS ALSO COMPLY WITH PPEC AND VISIBLE GARMENT REQUIREMENTS. REAR VIEW MIRRORS MUST BE MOUNTED ON HANDLE BAR OR FAIRING, AND HEADLIGHT MUST BE TURNED ON.
D. FAILURE TO WEAR THE PRESCRIBED PPEC OR COMPLY WITH LICENSING OR THE OPERATOR TRAINING REQUIREMENT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED IN MAKING LINE OF DUTY DETERMINATIONS.
5. ASMIS-1 POV MODULE. REFERENCE C REQUIRES THAT COMM
Now here some reading for the others
From: ou
A PENTAGON TELECOMMUNICATIONS(uc),ou:ALARACT RELEASE AUTHORITY(uc)Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:41 PM
To: AL ALARACT(uc)
Subject: ALARACT 010/2005
Importance: Low
UNCLASSIFIED//
THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN SENT BY THE PENTAGON TELECOMMUNICATIONS CENTER ON BEHALF OF DA WASHINGTON DC//DACS-SF//
SUBJECT: MOTORCYCLE SAFETY TRAINING AND OPERATING REQUIREMENTS
DIRECTOR OF ARMY SAFETY SENDS
A. DODI 6055.4, DOD TRAFFIC SAFETY PROGRAM
B. AR 385-55, PREVENTION OF MOTOR VEHICLE ACCIDENTS
C. ARMY SAFETY CAMPAIGN PLAN, APR 04
D. MSG, OCT 02, MOTORCYCLE SAFETY TRAINING AND OPERATING REQUIREMENTS
1. ARMY LEADERS MUST TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION IN RESPONSE TO AN ESCALATING LOSS OF SOLDIERS' LIVES TO MOTORCYCLE ACCIDENTS. NINE SOLDIERS HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES IN MOTORCYCLE ACCIDENTS DURING THE FIRST 2 MONTHS OF FY 05; 22 LIVES WERE LOST IN FY 04.
2. IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT COMMANDERS THOROUGHLY UNDERSTAND AND CONTINUE TO STRINGENTLY ENFORCE THE LONG-STANDING MOTORCYCLE SAFETY REQUIREMENTS CONTAINED IN REFERENCES A AND B ABOVE. SOLDIERS' LIVES CAN BE SAVED WITH USE OF THE ARMY MANAGEMENT INFORMATION SYSTEM-1 (ASMIS-1) PRIVATELY OWNED VEHICLE (POV) MODULE, AND ACCOUNTABILITY FOR UNDESIRABLE BEHAVIOR.
3. TRAINING:
A. THE TRAINING STANDARD IS THE MOTORCYCLE SAFETY FOUNDATION (MSF) OR MSF- BASED, STATE-APPROVED CURRICULUM TAUGHT BY CERTIFIED OR LICENSED INSTRUCTORS. HANDS-ON TRAINING AND A PERFORMANCE-BASED AND KNOWLEDGE-BASED EVALUATION ARE REQUIRED.
B. SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF PRESCRIBED MOTORCYCLE SAFETY TRAINING IS MANDATORY FOR ALL SOLDIERS OPERATING MOTORCYCLES ON OR OFF POST, ON OR OFF DUTY, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE MOTORCYCLE IS REGISTERED ON POST. SOLDIERS MUST BE IN POSSESSION OF AN MSF CARD WHEN THEY RIDE TO VERIFY COMPLETION OF TRAINING.
4. PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT AND CLOTHING (PPEC). RECOMMEND COMMANDERS REVIEW CURRENT REGULATIONS AS REFERENCED IN A AND B ABOVE, AND ENSURE ENFORCEMENT OF THE FOLLOWING:
A. SOLDIERS CONTINUE TO FALSELY BELIEVE THEY ARE NOT REQUIRED TO WEAR A HELMET OR OTHER PPEC IF THE STATE IN WHICH THEY OPERATE THEIR BIKE DOES NOT REQUIRE IT. FURTHERMORE, SOLDIERS ARE OFTEN OBSERVED WEARING THE REQUIRED PPEC WHILE RIDING ON POST, AND THEN REMOVING IT AFTER THEY DRIVE OFF POST. REGULATORY REQUIREMENTS APPLY TO ALL ACTIVE DUTY SOLDIERS OPERATING MOTORCYCLES ON OR OFF POST, ON OR OFF DUTY, REGARDLESS OF PERMANENT OR TRANSITORY STATUS, AND REGARDLESS OF LOCAL OR STATE LAWS. THEY ALSO APPLY TO ALL ARMY NATIONAL GUARD AND RESERVE COMPONENT SOLDIERS WHEN IN A DUTY STATUS (INDIVIDUAL DEVELOPMENTAL TRAINING, ADVANCED INDIVIDUAL TRAINING, ANNUAL TRAINING, AND TITLE 10 AND TITLE 32 STATUS). COMMANDERS MUST ENSURE THIS IS CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD.
B. REQUIRED PPEC ARE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION (DOT) CERTIFIED HELMET, IMPACT OR SHATTER RESISTANT GOGGLES OR FULL FACE SHIELD PROPERLY ATTACHED TO THE HELMET, STURDY OVER-THE-ANKLE FOOTWEAR, LONG SLEEVED SHIRT OR JACKET, LONG TROUSERS, FULL-FINGERED GLOVES OR MITTENS DESIGNED FOR USE ON MOTORCYCLE, BRIGHTLY COLORED OUTER UPPER GARMENT DURING THE DAY AND A RETRO-REFLECTIVE UPPER GARMENT DURING THE NIGHT. OUTER UPPER GARMENT SHALL BE CLEARLY VISIBLE AND NOT COVERED BY BACKPACKS OR OTHER OBSTRUCTIONS. SOLDIERS WHO WEAR A REFLECTIVE BELT SHOULD WEAR IT DIAGONALLY ACROSS THE TORSO TO ENSURE MAXIMUM VISIBILITY. COMMANDERS SHOULD ENSURE PPEC REQUIREMENTS ARE ENFORCED AT INSTALLATION GATE CHECKPOINTS.
C. OPERATORS MUST ENSURE THAT THEIR PASSENGERS ALSO COMPLY WITH PPEC AND VISIBLE GARMENT REQUIREMENTS. REAR VIEW MIRRORS MUST BE MOUNTED ON HANDLE BAR OR FAIRING, AND HEADLIGHT MUST BE TURNED ON.
D. FAILURE TO WEAR THE PRESCRIBED PPEC OR COMPLY WITH LICENSING OR THE OPERATOR TRAINING REQUIREMENT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED IN MAKING LINE OF DUTY DETERMINATIONS.
5. ASMIS-1 POV MODULE. REFERENCE C REQUIRES THAT COMM
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 23,001
Likes: 11,441
RE: overdoing it
If you get back up around McCoy give me a yell live 139 miles from it we will ride I have been to Atterbury, IN a few times if the army sends you up without the bike no worry I have a spare
ORIGINAL: YEFFRO12
smitty901 you sound like a great Top!(leading from the front) We had a guy get medical'd out from launching his RoadKing while drunk after leaving the NCO club. He damn near died, and will never be the same. This was just prior to our deployment to Afghanistan in '04. Then when we got from back from OEF a guy did the same thing on his Ultra. He's barely 40 and lives in a Nursing home now. We're going to see him next month after drill. I was at Ft. McCoy in 2006 for OIF Mob and heard all about that incident there too.
At Atterbury, IN were good if we have boots, helmet, and a PT belt around the sissy bar will work. I'll take the extra visibility...
smitty901 you sound like a great Top!(leading from the front) We had a guy get medical'd out from launching his RoadKing while drunk after leaving the NCO club. He damn near died, and will never be the same. This was just prior to our deployment to Afghanistan in '04. Then when we got from back from OEF a guy did the same thing on his Ultra. He's barely 40 and lives in a Nursing home now. We're going to see him next month after drill. I was at Ft. McCoy in 2006 for OIF Mob and heard all about that incident there too.
At Atterbury, IN were good if we have boots, helmet, and a PT belt around the sissy bar will work. I'll take the extra visibility...
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Road Warrior
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,315
Likes: 51
From: Cincinnati
RE: overdoing it
My thought on this;
The Army Safety guys on post are sometimes out of control. We all get the e-mails and messages on AKO about Joe riding his bike at mach 5 when he hits a parked car. We also get the messages about the E-2 that falls off the ladder hanging up the chain of command photos in the company. Why doesn’t the Post require everyone driving in cars to attend a defensive driving course? I agree with MOST of the policy. There isn’t anything wrong with going to a MSF course, nor wearing a helmet. I’m not a big fan of wearing a bright colored vest or PT belt (the whole PT belt thing is something else that kills me, but that’s another story) on Post or off when riding home. The reg says brightly colored shirt during the day, but I have been stopped for wearing a white long sleeve at the gate. I understand that the Post commander can and will change the local policy. As a senior NCO, I enforce the standards and will/ have jerk(ed) a knot in a junior troops *** when he screws up.
Believe it or not I have seen it where the Army leaders make things so safe it’s dangerous and when it’s in combat, it scares me.
One more thing; NO ONE OWNS ME. Yes I signed a contract, but I hate hearing it when someone tells you that you are Government property. I have never given a Soldier a counseling statement for getting a sun burn, but then again in my MOS, my guys are treated different. We get paid to think.
The Army Safety guys on post are sometimes out of control. We all get the e-mails and messages on AKO about Joe riding his bike at mach 5 when he hits a parked car. We also get the messages about the E-2 that falls off the ladder hanging up the chain of command photos in the company. Why doesn’t the Post require everyone driving in cars to attend a defensive driving course? I agree with MOST of the policy. There isn’t anything wrong with going to a MSF course, nor wearing a helmet. I’m not a big fan of wearing a bright colored vest or PT belt (the whole PT belt thing is something else that kills me, but that’s another story) on Post or off when riding home. The reg says brightly colored shirt during the day, but I have been stopped for wearing a white long sleeve at the gate. I understand that the Post commander can and will change the local policy. As a senior NCO, I enforce the standards and will/ have jerk(ed) a knot in a junior troops *** when he screws up.
Believe it or not I have seen it where the Army leaders make things so safe it’s dangerous and when it’s in combat, it scares me.
One more thing; NO ONE OWNS ME. Yes I signed a contract, but I hate hearing it when someone tells you that you are Government property. I have never given a Soldier a counseling statement for getting a sun burn, but then again in my MOS, my guys are treated different. We get paid to think.