DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,336
Likes: 67
From: SW Minnesota
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
Keith Code (advanced riding instructor) built a special bike that proved once and for all that everyone countersteers. With his bike, he mounted another set of handle bars to the frame itself. With the riders hands on that set of bars, it was impossible to continually steer the bike.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html
At this writing, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one in the actuality of countersteering of course. At 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html
At this writing, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one in the actuality of countersteering of course. At 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,553
Likes: 17
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
If you can get the bike to lean you can turn. If you can get the bike to lean with out counter-steering, you can turn with out counter-steering, after all, leaning is turning.
I think the potential for turning with out counter-steering depends solely on the bike in question. There are many bikes you simply can't throw around by shifting your weight and you must counter-steer to obtain the necessary lean, as the bikes have too much mass compared to the rider.
I also think counter-steering is often thought to be irrelevant because many riders combine counter-steering with other movements, and/or the degree of counter-steer used is negligible and goes unobserved.
Also, counter-steering can be utilized at low speeds to get the bike to fall into the turn.
I think the potential for turning with out counter-steering depends solely on the bike in question. There are many bikes you simply can't throw around by shifting your weight and you must counter-steer to obtain the necessary lean, as the bikes have too much mass compared to the rider.
I also think counter-steering is often thought to be irrelevant because many riders combine counter-steering with other movements, and/or the degree of counter-steer used is negligible and goes unobserved.
Also, counter-steering can be utilized at low speeds to get the bike to fall into the turn.
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 0
From:
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 0
From:
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
ORIGINAL: MNPGRider
Keith Code (advanced riding instructor) built a special bike that proved once and for all that everyone countersteers. With his bike, he mounted another set of handle bars to the frame itself. With the riders hands on that set of bars, it was impossible to continually steer the bike.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html
At this writing, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one in the actuality of countersteering of course. At 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not.
Keith Code (advanced riding instructor) built a special bike that proved once and for all that everyone countersteers. With his bike, he mounted another set of handle bars to the frame itself. With the riders hands on that set of bars, it was impossible to continually steer the bike.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html
At this writing, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one in the actuality of countersteering of course. At 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not.
Now.. Let's define counter steering versus body steering.
Counter steering - The direct and intent action of pushing the bar forward in the direction you wish to turn
Body steering - adjusting the weight load of the bike to one side or the other causing the bike to follow the direction of the natrual centrifical force put onto the bike's center of balance
Trust me, I know guys that ride stunt bikes for monster and guiys that race super bikes. You can steer without your hands on the bars. The video I posted proves that [8D]
Banned
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 498
Likes: 1
From:
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
ORIGINAL: meanbite
The difference is body steering versus counter steering. That's why in super bike racing they train on bikes where the steering column is fixed and won't turn, so that they can learn to steer using weight shift where the front wheel DOES NOT TURN. Once they master that they combine it with counter steering to make turns that would make most of us sick to our stomaches.
ORIGINAL: Lopoetve
that's still counter steering, it's just weight induced instead of front wheel induced. 
Front wheel still does the same thing.
ORIGINAL: meanbite
Here is a pretty good article I found. http://www.stevemunden.com/countersteering.html. You can agree with me or be wrong but you don't HAVE to countersteer to turn a bike. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't though.
Here is a pretty good article I found. http://www.stevemunden.com/countersteering.html. You can agree with me or be wrong but you don't HAVE to countersteer to turn a bike. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't though.
Front wheel still does the same thing.
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 0
From:
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
ORIGINAL: the metal
actually keith code built that bike, it's used at superbike schools to prove to the disbelievers that body steering does NOT work, not for learning how to ride fast
ORIGINAL: meanbite
The difference is body steering versus counter steering. That's why in super bike racing they train on bikes where the steering column is fixed and won't turn, so that they can learn to steer using weight shift where the front wheel DOES NOT TURN. Once they master that they combine it with counter steering to make turns that would make most of us sick to our stomaches.
ORIGINAL: Lopoetve
that's still counter steering, it's just weight induced instead of front wheel induced. Front wheel still does the same thing.
ORIGINAL: meanbite
Here is a pretty good article I found. http://www.stevemunden.com/countersteering.html. You can agree with me or be wrong but you don't HAVE to countersteer to turn a bike. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't though.
Here is a pretty good article I found. http://www.stevemunden.com/countersteering.html. You can agree with me or be wrong but you don't HAVE to countersteer to turn a bike. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't though.
Front wheel still does the same thing. 
Thread Starter
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Road Master
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 776
Likes: 0
From: Lake Arrowhead, ca
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
That rider was phenominal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Tourer
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 349
Likes: 1
From: Orange Co. So Cal
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
Very interesting thread. I rode a lot many years ago, then didn't ride for a long time. Recently bought my first Harley after riding Honda, Kawis, etc. I heard about this countersteering thing, and at first I didn't think I'd do it, but then I guessthat that was exactly what I'd been doing all along; come into a curve, use the bars as levers; press down on the inside grip, lift up on the outside grip, lean into it, tilt head upright,keep eyes level.
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The Schlong Man
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,772
Likes: 4
From: Nantucket
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
All of the above methods of turning ie shifting weight etc. even without using your hands directs the handlebars in exactly the same direction as if you were countersteering with your hands. Still no difference. The only way a bike will turn at speed is if the front tire is slightly out of alignment from the rear. In a left turn it will be slightly to the right of the rar tire. To turn right the front tire musttake a line slightly to the left of the rear. It's the only way a bike willturn at speed. Hoever you are managing to create this"mal-alignment" it's still the same. Countersteering is just a word used to verbally communicate a concept.