Some New Riders......
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,532
Likes: 1
From: Southern California
RE: Some New Riders......
I don't think that the problem with an MSF course is that new riders don't need that sort of training. On the contrary, for the most part they do. The problems I have with it are 1. They are taught by riders who, many should not be teaching it (I have not met one yet who hasn't been down at least once) and 2. It satisfies the DMV road course requirement. What that does is takes a new rider with inadequate skills and puts them on the freeway with everyone else, many of them thinking that they know all they need to about riding a bike. This makes them a threat to themselves as well as everyone else.
Tourer
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 334
Likes: 0
From: Frederick, Colorado
RE: Some New Riders......
I am a big fan of the MSF courses. If anything they make you aware and teach basic skills for instance the head check. Just this week I watch an older guy who obviously was a new rider just roll through a flashing red light to make a right hand turn with out paying attention. Following him for a little while I just cringedas he rode like everyone was watching for him.
Thread Starter
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Advanced
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 78
Likes: 1
From: Atlanta, Ga.
RE: Some New Riders......
I personally am not saying that by taking a rider course you will be a better rider but you will have a better understanding of all that is involved in riding. As far as the price for the class, thats pennies compared to what you will be investing in the bike. I will not even go into the value of your life. Since there are those of us that have been riding since childhood, (dirtbikes) this does not apply to the average urbanite that decides to by a motorcycle. Then I would also rather learn on a bike that a class was furnishing as opposed to one I invested heavily in just in case I did have my tumbles there would not be a financial loss here. That just makes sense period. This logic applies to both men and women...stupidity is not gender based.
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
From: A Boston Yankee in Surrey, England
RE: Some New Riders......
There are a couple of things that are funny about this whole argument:
1. People expect to take driving lessons before driving a car. There's no question about it and, if I'm not mistaken, it's a legal requirement in most states. Yet, for some reason, many people think you can just jump on a bike and somehow the knowledge to ride will just miracle into your head. Why don't we assume that of driving a car? Same applies to flying lessons or HGV driving, forklift, etc. About the only motor vehicle we drop this expectation is a motorcycle. And it's about the hardest of the lot to ride well! Why do so many riders think they can just figure out a motorcycle or learn all about it from their mates who ride?
2. We call car lessons, driving lessons. We call flying lessons flying lessons. We call motorcycle lessons a "riders' safety course", like it's optional, not that important, more like remedial "you're not safe enough" training, and more about wearing a reflective vest and turning your lights on during the day. Why isn't the MSF called Motorcycle Riding Lessons? How seriously would the uninitiated take driving lessons if we called them "driver safety courses"? The accepted terminology says a lot about the subconcious attitude about the course and how important the community thinks it really is.
Just my .02 worth but, with over 20 years driving experience, 15 years flying experience, the last thing that crossed my mind was taking out a motorcycle without being taught properly by a qualified instructor. There will always be exceptions, but, judging by some of the bad habits I see on the road here in the UK, I'm guessing the exceptions are fewer than they would like to believe.
1. People expect to take driving lessons before driving a car. There's no question about it and, if I'm not mistaken, it's a legal requirement in most states. Yet, for some reason, many people think you can just jump on a bike and somehow the knowledge to ride will just miracle into your head. Why don't we assume that of driving a car? Same applies to flying lessons or HGV driving, forklift, etc. About the only motor vehicle we drop this expectation is a motorcycle. And it's about the hardest of the lot to ride well! Why do so many riders think they can just figure out a motorcycle or learn all about it from their mates who ride?
2. We call car lessons, driving lessons. We call flying lessons flying lessons. We call motorcycle lessons a "riders' safety course", like it's optional, not that important, more like remedial "you're not safe enough" training, and more about wearing a reflective vest and turning your lights on during the day. Why isn't the MSF called Motorcycle Riding Lessons? How seriously would the uninitiated take driving lessons if we called them "driver safety courses"? The accepted terminology says a lot about the subconcious attitude about the course and how important the community thinks it really is.
Just my .02 worth but, with over 20 years driving experience, 15 years flying experience, the last thing that crossed my mind was taking out a motorcycle without being taught properly by a qualified instructor. There will always be exceptions, but, judging by some of the bad habits I see on the road here in the UK, I'm guessing the exceptions are fewer than they would like to believe.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,530
Likes: 607
From: Raleigh NC
RE: Some New Riders......
taking a class.... when one holds the opinion that they won't/can't learn something IS a waste of time....
Did I learn something from the MSF-beginner class??? yes.... but only because I open ....I was taught by drunken yahoos ( I was one at the time as well) how I, or any one survived, is a guess. But I took the class, and enjoyed it... YES I was bored with some of it... but I had fun and learned quite a bit....
Does the class AUTOMATCIALY make one a safer rider??? hmmmm NO.... you have to learn and apply the skills they teach you.... but some people just do not have the situational awareness.... and others just have too many lapse of concentration
Why someone would purchase a motorcycle , then buy all the crap one needs.... and NOT fork over the few extra bucks for training... is a mystery... but I bet she'll spend more in chrome.... oh well....
Did I learn something from the MSF-beginner class??? yes.... but only because I open ....I was taught by drunken yahoos ( I was one at the time as well) how I, or any one survived, is a guess. But I took the class, and enjoyed it... YES I was bored with some of it... but I had fun and learned quite a bit....
Does the class AUTOMATCIALY make one a safer rider??? hmmmm NO.... you have to learn and apply the skills they teach you.... but some people just do not have the situational awareness.... and others just have too many lapse of concentration
Why someone would purchase a motorcycle , then buy all the crap one needs.... and NOT fork over the few extra bucks for training... is a mystery... but I bet she'll spend more in chrome.... oh well....
Tourer
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 444
Likes: 0
From: Marietta, GA
RE: Some New Riders......
ORIGINAL: BadBoyFLSTC
What that does is takes a new rider with inadequate skills and puts them on the freeway with everyone else, many of them thinking that they know all they need to about riding a bike. This makes them a threat to themselves as well as everyone else.
What that does is takes a new rider with inadequate skills and puts them on the freeway with everyone else, many of them thinking that they know all they need to about riding a bike. This makes them a threat to themselves as well as everyone else.
Is a 16 year oldkid that takes a driver's education class ready for all situations on the road? I think we would all agree the answer to that is no. I had an guy in his 50s pull out in front of me today who still isn't ready
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Road Master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 891
Likes: 1
From:
RE: Some New Riders......
I learned a lot in the MSF course. But, the most important thing was what I didn't learn--counter steering. The instruction was superb except the instuctors acted like they had no clue themselves what counter steering meant. However, at least I learned that there was such a thing and eventually learned how to do it.
Far too often a riding buddy has an accident. Since I'm up in years, most of my buddies are senior riders with decades of riding experience. Fifty years of experience does not always teach you how to take a curve or how to counter steer. If you think it does, you too have one more lesson to learn.
Far too often a riding buddy has an accident. Since I'm up in years, most of my buddies are senior riders with decades of riding experience. Fifty years of experience does not always teach you how to take a curve or how to counter steer. If you think it does, you too have one more lesson to learn.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,319
Likes: 2
From:
RE: Some New Riders......
ORIGINAL: TideRKC
This is a whole problem in itself and is not a result of taking a class to learn the fundamentals. A reasonable and logical rider will realize that they still have a lot to learnregardless of ifthey took a class, spent a couple hours learningfrom their friend, or just figured things out on their own. It is the on the road experiences that teach the biggest lessons. I've been riding a month and have put a couple thousand miles on my bike but I know it will take a lot longer for me to be a proficient rider.
Is a 16 year oldkid that takes a driver's education class ready for all situations on the road? I think we would all agree the answer to that is no. I had an guy in his 50s pull out in front of me today who still isn't ready
ORIGINAL: BadBoyFLSTC
What that does is takes a new rider with inadequate skills and puts them on the freeway with everyone else, many of them thinking that they know all they need to about riding a bike. This makes them a threat to themselves as well as everyone else.
What that does is takes a new rider with inadequate skills and puts them on the freeway with everyone else, many of them thinking that they know all they need to about riding a bike. This makes them a threat to themselves as well as everyone else.
Is a 16 year oldkid that takes a driver's education class ready for all situations on the road? I think we would all agree the answer to that is no. I had an guy in his 50s pull out in front of me today who still isn't ready