Some New Riders......
Tourer
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 259
Likes: 17
From: Montana
RE: Some New Riders......
ORIGINAL: Pitts2112
There are a couple of things that are funny about this whole argument:
1. People expect to take driving lessons before driving a car. There's no question about it and, if I'm not mistaken, it's a legal requirement in most states. Yet, for some reason, many people think you can just jump on a bike and somehow the knowledge to ride will just miracle into your head. Why don't we assume that of driving a car? Same applies to flying lessons or HGV driving, forklift, etc. About the only motor vehicle we drop this expectation is a motorcycle. And it's about the hardest of the lot to ride well! Why do so many riders think they can just figure out a motorcycle or learn all about it from their mates who ride?
2. We call car lessons, driving lessons. We call flying lessons flying lessons. We call motorcycle lessons a "riders' safety course", like it's optional, not that important, more like remedial "you're not safe enough" training, and more about wearing a reflective vest and turning your lights on during the day. Why isn't the MSF called Motorcycle Riding Lessons? How seriously would the uninitiated take driving lessons if we called them "driver safety courses"? The accepted terminology says a lot about the subconscious attitude about the course and how important the community thinks it really is.
Just my .02 worth but, with over 20 years driving experience, 15 years flying experience, the last thing that crossed my mind was taking out a motorcycle without being taught properly by a qualified instructor. There will always be exceptions, but, judging by some of the bad habits I see on the road here in the UK, I'm guessing the exceptions are fewer than they would like to believe.
There are a couple of things that are funny about this whole argument:
1. People expect to take driving lessons before driving a car. There's no question about it and, if I'm not mistaken, it's a legal requirement in most states. Yet, for some reason, many people think you can just jump on a bike and somehow the knowledge to ride will just miracle into your head. Why don't we assume that of driving a car? Same applies to flying lessons or HGV driving, forklift, etc. About the only motor vehicle we drop this expectation is a motorcycle. And it's about the hardest of the lot to ride well! Why do so many riders think they can just figure out a motorcycle or learn all about it from their mates who ride?
2. We call car lessons, driving lessons. We call flying lessons flying lessons. We call motorcycle lessons a "riders' safety course", like it's optional, not that important, more like remedial "you're not safe enough" training, and more about wearing a reflective vest and turning your lights on during the day. Why isn't the MSF called Motorcycle Riding Lessons? How seriously would the uninitiated take driving lessons if we called them "driver safety courses"? The accepted terminology says a lot about the subconscious attitude about the course and how important the community thinks it really is.
Just my .02 worth but, with over 20 years driving experience, 15 years flying experience, the last thing that crossed my mind was taking out a motorcycle without being taught properly by a qualified instructor. There will always be exceptions, but, judging by some of the bad habits I see on the road here in the UK, I'm guessing the exceptions are fewer than they would like to believe.
Thread Starter
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Advanced
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 78
Likes: 1
From: Atlanta, Ga.
RE: Some New Riders......
I agree with you points exactly. I also think that if we reevaluate the approach that non-riders will also begin to view the aspect of riding as more of a skilled area as opposed to something that is just hobby related.
Road Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,133
Likes: 6
From: Londonderry, NH
RE: Some New Riders......
there were 23 motorcyclefatalities in nh last year. (got this number from a nice lady that compiles this sort of data at the dmv)
out of these, none had taken the safety course. (she gave me that info as well)
2 years ago, there were 42motorcycle fatalities; (this was in the papers..as it was an alarmingly high number for nh)
1 had taken the course (also in the news papers). He hit a deer, which arguably was unavoidable.
I don't care how long you've been riding, I thinka safety course is a goodidea. if you've been riding for 17 years without having taken a course, perhaps skip the basic rider course and move on to the experienced rider course.
There was talk 2 years ago about trying to get helmet laws passed. Officials felt that training, not helmet laws, were the key to driving down fatalities.
That's my opinion and that of the new hampshire department of motor vehicles.
Rob
out of these, none had taken the safety course. (she gave me that info as well)
2 years ago, there were 42motorcycle fatalities; (this was in the papers..as it was an alarmingly high number for nh)
1 had taken the course (also in the news papers). He hit a deer, which arguably was unavoidable.
I don't care how long you've been riding, I thinka safety course is a goodidea. if you've been riding for 17 years without having taken a course, perhaps skip the basic rider course and move on to the experienced rider course.
There was talk 2 years ago about trying to get helmet laws passed. Officials felt that training, not helmet laws, were the key to driving down fatalities.
That's my opinion and that of the new hampshire department of motor vehicles.
Rob
Cruiser
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: Bath, NC
RE: Some New Riders......
I'm all for motorcycle driving courses, took mine at a local community college for $125 - msf/ama. would I take a Harley driver's edge course that offers 1/2 - 1 additional day of training (in my area) for an additional $200... no. would I take a refresher every year... no, I'd buy some gadget for the bike. the old lady had a point - it is too expensive.
Until the state, and community colleges started making a dime from 6 riders at a time, not many cared about motorcycle driving courses. I didn't even notice the "reduced insurance rate" the course was to benefit. Yes I learned a bunch. and yes I recommend taking a course. I just don't recommend shelling out wasteful money.
airdog
Until the state, and community colleges started making a dime from 6 riders at a time, not many cared about motorcycle driving courses. I didn't even notice the "reduced insurance rate" the course was to benefit. Yes I learned a bunch. and yes I recommend taking a course. I just don't recommend shelling out wasteful money.
airdog
Tourer
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 444
Likes: 0
From: Marietta, GA
RE: Some New Riders......
ORIGINAL: airdog
I'm all for motorcycle driving courses, took mine at a local community college for $125 - msf/ama. would I take a Harley driver's edge course that offers 1/2 - 1 additional day of training (in my area) for an additional $200... no.
I'm all for motorcycle driving courses, took mine at a local community college for $125 - msf/ama. would I take a Harley driver's edge course that offers 1/2 - 1 additional day of training (in my area) for an additional $200... no.
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
From: A Boston Yankee in Surrey, England
RE: Some New Riders......
Thanks, Moonrunner. Sounds like a lot of work to be an instructor for one of those and, if our instructor here in UK's Riders' Edge is anything to go by, not brilliantly well paid. I really appreciated the quality of instruction and, because there were only two of us who finished out the whole week, we got a lot of personal attention.
My point was more about the attitude of the biking community (and, more importantly, those coming into it new) about how to learn to ride. For some reason, the world largely seems to think you can just buy a bike and off you go. That because they're called "safety courses" rather than "lessons", proper instruction is optional and I'll be able to figure it out on my own. Yet those same people all took some kind of Drivers' Ed when they were 16. I don't get why the logic applies to cars and every other motorised vehicle, but not bikes. If we could change that perception, I think we could do a lot to effect the fatality and accident rate.
My point was more about the attitude of the biking community (and, more importantly, those coming into it new) about how to learn to ride. For some reason, the world largely seems to think you can just buy a bike and off you go. That because they're called "safety courses" rather than "lessons", proper instruction is optional and I'll be able to figure it out on my own. Yet those same people all took some kind of Drivers' Ed when they were 16. I don't get why the logic applies to cars and every other motorised vehicle, but not bikes. If we could change that perception, I think we could do a lot to effect the fatality and accident rate.
Advanced
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: Wahiawa, Hawaii
RE: Some New Riders......
Interesting points.
It took me 3 years or "ridin dirty" before I decided I should take the course myself. The course opened my eyes to many things I did no t know before (or did know but did not realize it)
When my wife climbed onto the back of the fatboy, she had NEVER been on a bike before. I went over the whole, "look over my inside shoulder, move with me" routine and the reasons why... She did the EXACT OPPOSITE of everything I told her.
I told her I would not pack her again until she took the safety course. She took the course, and I boughther a 250 nighthawk to practice on. After the 3rd day, she understood what she was doing wrong... so we tried again.. it became a much more pleasant experience packing her.
MSF will provide you with fundamentals and thats it. Go take the class and walk in the door thinking you know nothing about motorcycles. It'll do you good to not compare what you do to how they teach.
I'd go as far as to say a motorcycle safety course should be taken by ALL driver applicants (cagers as well) so they understand the differences.
It took me 3 years or "ridin dirty" before I decided I should take the course myself. The course opened my eyes to many things I did no t know before (or did know but did not realize it)
When my wife climbed onto the back of the fatboy, she had NEVER been on a bike before. I went over the whole, "look over my inside shoulder, move with me" routine and the reasons why... She did the EXACT OPPOSITE of everything I told her.
I told her I would not pack her again until she took the safety course. She took the course, and I boughther a 250 nighthawk to practice on. After the 3rd day, she understood what she was doing wrong... so we tried again.. it became a much more pleasant experience packing her.
MSF will provide you with fundamentals and thats it. Go take the class and walk in the door thinking you know nothing about motorcycles. It'll do you good to not compare what you do to how they teach.
I'd go as far as to say a motorcycle safety course should be taken by ALL driver applicants (cagers as well) so they understand the differences.
Road Warrior
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,502
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere in, WA
RE: Some New Riders......
As a new rider (never been anything but a passenger) I took the Beginning Rider's Course. I learned a LOT. 8 months later I took and passed the Experienced Rider's Course. And I learned even more. I have practiced to the tune of 11K+ in a little less than a year.
I agree that just because someone takes the course(s) they aren't automatically better riders, but I think it helps. A LOT. It sure didn't make me the perfect rider, but I believe it gave me a GREAT start.
I also think that there are people out there with NO business on a bike. Case in point. My Ex, who thinks that he has to keep up with and best me in everything, bought an 07 Softail 4 days after I bought my bike. He had ridden dirt bikes as a kid, and thought he knew everything. The day he got the bike, he rode it out of the driveway and put it in the ditch. Messed up the paint, scratched up his pipes, and the bike wasn't even 15 minutes in his possession. He has taken and failed the MSF course twice, and taken the state riding test no less than SIX times and failed. He will not take ANY kind of help from anyone like the other day when I very gently tried to explain counter steering as he fights the bike around every curve, and he acted like I'd slapped him in the face. Its one of those "YOU can't tell me anything" attitudes. I see a lot of that out on the roads.
As to the "Especially Women" thing... there's nothing in the world I hate worse than an obnoxious woman on the freeway in an SUV talking on the phone, smoking a cigarette, drinking her coffee and putting on makeup all while supposedly driving down the road. HOWEVER, I know an awful lot of women riders and most of them can not only keep up with the boys, more than a few can ride circles around em.
I agree that just because someone takes the course(s) they aren't automatically better riders, but I think it helps. A LOT. It sure didn't make me the perfect rider, but I believe it gave me a GREAT start.
I also think that there are people out there with NO business on a bike. Case in point. My Ex, who thinks that he has to keep up with and best me in everything, bought an 07 Softail 4 days after I bought my bike. He had ridden dirt bikes as a kid, and thought he knew everything. The day he got the bike, he rode it out of the driveway and put it in the ditch. Messed up the paint, scratched up his pipes, and the bike wasn't even 15 minutes in his possession. He has taken and failed the MSF course twice, and taken the state riding test no less than SIX times and failed. He will not take ANY kind of help from anyone like the other day when I very gently tried to explain counter steering as he fights the bike around every curve, and he acted like I'd slapped him in the face. Its one of those "YOU can't tell me anything" attitudes. I see a lot of that out on the roads.
As to the "Especially Women" thing... there's nothing in the world I hate worse than an obnoxious woman on the freeway in an SUV talking on the phone, smoking a cigarette, drinking her coffee and putting on makeup all while supposedly driving down the road. HOWEVER, I know an awful lot of women riders and most of them can not only keep up with the boys, more than a few can ride circles around em.
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Advanced
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From:
RE: Some New Riders......
I agree with you Tide. I taught myself to ride 20 years ago but only rode fora couple of years.Lastyear I decided to take it up again and someone suggested the MSF course. It was a great experience andI learned alot from the course. During the course theinstructors made it very clear that the course only taught us the basics and that in no way should we feel ready to go out on the road and start riding without any practice. They always stessed the importance ofpracticing all the technics we were taught in class.
ORIGINAL: TideRKC
This is a whole problem in itself and is not a result of taking a class to learn the fundamentals. A reasonable and logical rider will realize that they still have a lot to learnregardless of ifthey took a class, spent a couple hours learningfrom their friend, or just figured things out on their own. It is the on the road experiences that teach the biggest lessons. I've been riding a month and have put a couple thousand miles on my bike but I know it will take a lot longer for me to be a proficient rider.
Is a 16 year oldkid that takes a driver's education class ready for all situations on the road? I think we would all agree the answer to that is no. I had an guy in his 50s pull out in front of me today who still isn't ready
ORIGINAL: BadBoyFLSTC
What that does is takes a new rider with inadequate skills and puts them on the freeway with everyone else, many of them thinking that they know all they need to about riding a bike. This makes them a threat to themselves as well as everyone else.
What that does is takes a new rider with inadequate skills and puts them on the freeway with everyone else, many of them thinking that they know all they need to about riding a bike. This makes them a threat to themselves as well as everyone else.
Is a 16 year oldkid that takes a driver's education class ready for all situations on the road? I think we would all agree the answer to that is no. I had an guy in his 50s pull out in front of me today who still isn't ready
Banned
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,532
Likes: 1
From: Southern California
RE: Some New Riders......
ORIGINAL: Moonrunner
Very well stated! And as Bad boy said, as with any profession there are folks who perhaps should not be teaching for one reason or another. However, if they are following the curriculum, providing proper demonstrations and evaluations, even an arrogant *** that feels he has nothing to learn usually picks up on something he may have forgotten over the years or is reminded of a poor habit he has developed over the years. Also, in the years I worked as an instructor, I never heard any instructor state thatoncea student had completed a class and passed that they were ready to take on traffic. I've always heard quite the opposite, for example; practice in empty parking lots, quiet back streets, or open country if at all possible. And ride with experience riders who can help keep you out of situations. It is stated numerous times in the curriculum that the MSF "Basic Rider Course" is an "Introduction to Motorcycling". I really don't see that as inferring in any way that one who graduates would befreeway ready or "many of them thinking that they know all they need to about riding a bike. This makes them a threat to themselves as well as everyone else." Thinking they know all they need to know is reserved for folks who would rather bad-mouth the course & instructors, who in some states, teach these courses for free as I did for 5 years and after that I really don't think I was doing it for the $250 they paid me to giveup2 ten or more hour days on the few summer weekends we have in Montana. Oh and one of our instructors wore a pedometer one day. Did anyone realize that we walked over well over 20 miles on the concrete range in the 100 degrees temperature for each of those two days of class. That's why I had to quit, teaching those classes were causing further nerve damage in my lower back and right leg.
ORIGINAL: Pitts2112
There are a couple of things that are funny about this whole argument:
1. People expect to take driving lessons before driving a car. There's no question about it and, if I'm not mistaken, it's a legal requirement in most states. Yet, for some reason, many people think you can just jump on a bike and somehow the knowledge to ride will just miracle into your head. Why don't we assume that of driving a car? Same applies to flying lessons or HGV driving, forklift, etc. About the only motor vehicle we drop this expectation is a motorcycle. And it's about the hardest of the lot to ride well! Why do so many riders think they can just figure out a motorcycle or learn all about it from their mates who ride?
2. We call car lessons, driving lessons. We call flying lessons flying lessons. We call motorcycle lessons a "riders' safety course", like it's optional, not that important, more like remedial "you're not safe enough" training, and more about wearing a reflective vest and turning your lights on during the day. Why isn't the MSF called Motorcycle Riding Lessons? How seriously would the uninitiated take driving lessons if we called them "driver safety courses"? The accepted terminology says a lot about the subconscious attitude about the course and how important the community thinks it really is.
Just my .02 worth but, with over 20 years driving experience, 15 years flying experience, the last thing that crossed my mind was taking out a motorcycle without being taught properly by a qualified instructor. There will always be exceptions, but, judging by some of the bad habits I see on the road here in the UK, I'm guessing the exceptions are fewer than they would like to believe.
There are a couple of things that are funny about this whole argument:
1. People expect to take driving lessons before driving a car. There's no question about it and, if I'm not mistaken, it's a legal requirement in most states. Yet, for some reason, many people think you can just jump on a bike and somehow the knowledge to ride will just miracle into your head. Why don't we assume that of driving a car? Same applies to flying lessons or HGV driving, forklift, etc. About the only motor vehicle we drop this expectation is a motorcycle. And it's about the hardest of the lot to ride well! Why do so many riders think they can just figure out a motorcycle or learn all about it from their mates who ride?
2. We call car lessons, driving lessons. We call flying lessons flying lessons. We call motorcycle lessons a "riders' safety course", like it's optional, not that important, more like remedial "you're not safe enough" training, and more about wearing a reflective vest and turning your lights on during the day. Why isn't the MSF called Motorcycle Riding Lessons? How seriously would the uninitiated take driving lessons if we called them "driver safety courses"? The accepted terminology says a lot about the subconscious attitude about the course and how important the community thinks it really is.
Just my .02 worth but, with over 20 years driving experience, 15 years flying experience, the last thing that crossed my mind was taking out a motorcycle without being taught properly by a qualified instructor. There will always be exceptions, but, judging by some of the bad habits I see on the road here in the UK, I'm guessing the exceptions are fewer than they would like to believe.