Leather Jacket
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,414
Likes: 3
From: Corporate States of America
Kevlar underwear Hahahahahahahaha. Did I get this right? Are you saying people who wear leather jackets are posers? Or is it just the people who wear Langlitz jackets?Please clarify.
Club Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,892
Likes: 2
From: DUNDALK,MARYLAND
No you did not get it right. But if you riding without any type of protection. Thinking a leather skin with save you from any crash. It's simple motorcycle jacket come with protection. Like Harley dealership have start putting on there other then riding jackets. "Not to be use as riding gear." Yes kevlar with pads you can wear most any type of Poser clothes you like it's your a$$.
Tourer
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
From: atlanta ga.
the other day i went for a beer in a bar that doesn't get too many bikers. i had a legendary usa black stallion jacket on. as i was leaving i heard someone say in a low tone of voice something about "fonzi". i think that is kind of funny, actually. but i couldn't resist holding up the finger as i kept walking to the door.
the thing is: i know beyond all doubt that i am a poser. but damn, i look good. i can't help it. what the hell am i supposed to do?
Club Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,892
Likes: 2
From: DUNDALK,MARYLAND
KEVLARŽ FAQ
A passing Hippie asked me: "Would you care to do me a paragraph or 2 for the FAQ on the delights of Kevlar(r) shirts and gloves?". Initially, I told the scrounging bastard to **** off and get a job, but in the end I acquiesced, not least because he pointed out that he had a job and that I did not.
I am somewhat of an advocate for "non-leather" motorcycle clothing. Not that I have anything against leather, I own (counts) three full race suits and four leather jackets. But it's just about the oldest fabric we use and, as a quondam Materials Scientist, I think that modern textiles can work better than a cow's backside in some motorcycling contexts. And they should be more predictable than leather, which is variable in quality, even in a single sheet.
Why is this?
Dr. Rod Woods
A clothing scientist and motorcyclist who got involved in the development of the CE standard for motorcycle protective equipment. I've attended some of Dr. Woods' talks and chatted with him on occasion. His statistical analysis of motorcyclists' injuries is the standard work for anyone thinking about what to wear on a motorcycle.
[Without digressing too far and going from memory, this says that injuries - now helmets are a given - get worse the further down the body you go, if you look at a picture of a human being standing upright, arms by their sides. So ankles need protection more than knees, hands need it as much as hips and shoulders are relatively unimportant - mainly because collarbones are "nature's crumple zone" and break anyway!]
Dr. Woods wears a KevlarŽ suit of his own design, with the body armour which he designed and patented. He wears conventional knitted KevlarŽ "glass handling" gloves and a pair of old paratrooper boots - because they are waterproof and very, very stiff.
So what is this wonder material?
KEVLARŽ comes from DuPont and is 5 times stronger than steel on an equal weight basis, yet, at the same time, is lightweight, flexible and comfortable. It is also a unique yellow colour and very difficult to dye to other colours, so you can usually see when KevlarŽ has been used in a garment.
Two research scientists, Stephanie Kwolek and Herbert Blades, working in a corporate lab created this remarkable aramid fibre in 1965. Fibres of KEVLARŽ consist of long molecular chains produced from poly-paraphenylene terephthalamide. The chains are highly oriented with strong interchain bonding which result in a unique combination of properties: Because of the superior protection it provides, KEVLARŽ brand fibre quickly became the technology of choice for bullet-resistant vests. Police officers have relied on the KEVLARŽ brand for more than 25 years.
KEVLARŽ para-aramid fibre possesses a remarkable combination of properties:
* High Tensile Strength at Low Weight
* Low Elongation to Break High Modulus (Structural Rigidity)
* Low Electrical Conductivity
* High Chemical Resistance
* Low Thermal Shrinkage
* High Toughness (Work-To-Break)
* Excellent Dimensional Stability
* High Cut Resistance
* Flame Resistant, Self-Extinguishing
Applications of KEVLARŽ:
* Small-diameter, lightweight ropes that hold 22,000 pounds and help moor the largest U.S. Navy vessels
* Shrapnel-resistant shielding in jet aircraft engines that will protect passengers in case an explosion occurs
* Gloves that protect hands and fingers against cuts, slashes and other injuries that often occur in glass and sheet metal factories
* Kayaks that provide better impact resistance with no extra weight
* And - of course - motorcycle protective gear.
Performance Bikes Magazine
When Performance Bikes' John Robinson tested unlined (summer) leather gloves, Dr. Woods persuaded him to use a pair of knitted Kevlar "glass handling" gloves as a 'control'. They tested the gloves by placing a standard sized wooden puck in each glove (palm down, as Dr. Wood's research shows that people slide with palms down). The glove was then pressed on a linishing machine [a giant belt sander] with a set force and the distance: time to wear through was measured.
The KevlarŽ won, of course. In fact, it beat the best unlined gloves by a factor of three: you would slide three times as far before the road hurt your hands in KevlarŽ gloves than you would in the best leather gloves. As confirmation, CPPT (no, I don't know who these people are!) data shows that KevlarŽ is up to five times more cut resistant than leather, which is why it is used in the glass industry.
And the best leather gloves cost from 6 to ten times what the KevlarŽ gloves cost. Even if you're wealthy, you probably don't replace your expensive summer gloves each year. But sweat etc. will weaken the leather and the stitching of the leather gloves - whereas (see above)KevlarŽ is almost inert. The PB tests were on new gloves - a more realistic test might have included gloves which had been worn for a few months .. in which case the KevlarŽ would probably have won by an even fatter margin than "three times better than leather".
KevlarŽ is NOT the solution in all situations.
Why don't Riders' Warehouse use KevlarŽ in their excellent and unreservedly recommended Roadcrafter suits? Their website (www.aerostich.com) has the following:
"We still choose CorduraŽ, not KevlarŽ. Here's why: Its advantages just don't make up for its disadvantages.
In pure, undiluted form, KevlarŽ is lighter than nylon and has greater tensile strength. It won't melt like nylon a fter touching a hot muffler (or from the friction-generated heat of a high speed slide on hot pavement). Unfortunately, it's expensive and difficult to work with, which limits design and construction possibilities. And believe it or not, pure KevlarŽ fabric actually is much less abrasion-resistant than Cordura nylon. KevlarŽ fibres have far less elasticity than CorduraŽ nylon fibres, a crucial handicap in a crash. Even the smoothest pavements have a rough aggregate surface that causes abrasive pulling. Nylon's stretchy fibres will elongate, ride over the surface irregularities, then snap back into the weave (like a tree bending in a strong wind), but KevlarŽ fibres quickly reach their tensile limit and snap.
To solve these problems, manufacturers blend KevlarŽ with LycraŽ and nylon. In this blend, "KevlarŽ" is only about one third actual KevlarŽ. This creates problems. Because of the additional nylon and LycraŽ, much of its slight weight advantage over CorduraŽ is lost. It also loses some of its fire-resistant qualities. The blended KevlarŽ fabric may burn or melt (just like nylon) when it comes in contact with a flame, hot component, or high frictional heat.
Some KevlarŽ suits may provide good crash performance because they are specifically designed for sanctioned competitive road racing. Roadcrafter suits aren't, but fortunately they're designed for everything else, including abrasion resistance at highway speeds.
We've tested (and will continue to test) CorduraŽ nylon against the alternatives. Its superior comfort, easy workability and excellent abrasion resistance make it our choice for quality, versatile, high performance riders' clothing. You've got a choice between the Roadcrafter and its proven record of outstanding abrasion performance, and something that costs more and delivers less. Guess what we recommend."
The fabric to which Riders' Warehouse appear to be referring is Schoeller K-protek. You'll find this in the knee and groin panels of some leathers and on the elbows and shoulders of the Scott "Road" jackets. It is not KevlarŽ, it is (as Riders' Warehouse correctly say) a blend of KevlarŽ with LycraŽ etc. It has its advantages, but it is NOT the best way to use KevlarŽ.
Other Advantages
Warm. Have you ever worn a string vest: Warm despite the holes, isn't it? The same is true of knitted KevlarŽ gloves. They are surprisingly warm on a 'bike. I wear mine quite early in the spring and quite late in the autumn. And, if the weather is really foul (e.g.: snow!), I'll wear waterproof mittens with the KevlarŽ under them, in preference to my winter gauntlets.
Dry quickly. KevlarŽ fibres do not absorb water. It comes in through the holes in the knit or the weave, but the fabric is impervious. So the gloves dry in instants, once the rain stops. If you've ever met a summer downpour in unlined leather gloves (and had the dye leach out onto your hands, as like as not) you might find KevlarŽ a better bet.
Washable. Do your sweaty gloves offend people and attract dogs? My (three year old) KevlarŽ gloves are clean, because they are machine washable. I use KevlarŽ for off road riding, because moto-x gloves are usually of dire quality and because you can wash the mud out of them.
Fireproof. I bought (mail order) two sets of "double layer" KevlarŽ gloves. They turned out to be too thick for comfortable 'bike use, so I gave one pair to a pal (they only cost about 15 pounds a pair) and kept the other set for welding gloves. Said pal runs a training centre and has BIG barbeques every week through the summer. Not only can you lift the grill off the - half oil drum - barbie while wearing these gloves to add more charcoal; you can stir the burning coals with your gloved hand!
Personal Choice
I have four KevlarŽ motorcycling garments:
* Medium weight KevlarŽ knitted gloves from ARCO Safety Supplies. Yellow. Cost under ten pounds a pair. I've added Velcro(tm) wrist straps to stop them coming off in a slide. Best buy! ARCO has branches all over the UK, so you can buy face-to-face, which allows you to try their three or four different types of KevlarŽ gloves first. (see below for product details)
* Dragin' Jeans' knitted KevlarŽ gloves. Cost about 15 pounds a pair. Come in black (which is why I got them) and with the Velcro(tm) already on. Not worth the premium, unless you can't face yellow gloves or adding wrist straps. Don't bother.
* Dragin' Jeans' knitted KevlarŽ sweatshirt. Designed for riding in Australia (where leathers can be too hot!). I wear this under a denim jacket or rugby shirt for rides in hot weather. Or you could wear it under a waterproof jacket, for added protection. Sadly, this top was expensive (about 60 pounds) as it's made for the relatively small motorcycle market. The glass handling gloves are cheap because the glass industry buys millions of pairs a year. It's black, but KevlarŽ does not dye well and it fades very quickly. If you will ever (e.g.) ride across the Karoo desert in 45 decrees of heat, this is a must. If you'd never, ever ride without a heavy jacket, it's not worth it.
* Hood Jeans' armoured / KevlarŽ lined jeans. Feel like jeans (especially if you fit Heine Gericke's Hiprotek armour in place of the bulky armour they suggest), but protect like GOOD leathers in a slide. Let me stress that bit: these jeans have acres of KevlarŽ in them, so they will be VERY tough in a slide. Probably far tougher than lightweight/ summer-weight leathers. I got a black pair (they do blue denim or cargo pants as alternatives) for around seventy pounds, inc. the armour and having them hemmed to length. Best buy!
Future
Draggin' Jeans say they will sell KevlarŽ long johns ... one day. These would allow you to wear any pair of trousers on a 'bike and still be "reasonably" safe.
One day - we hope - Dr. Rod Woods' suit made of KevlarŽ and other CLEVER MATERIALS may hit the market. It won't be cheap - probably 500 quid plus - but it would replace leathers, waterproofs ... everything in your 'biking wardrobe. And it will be light, comfy to wear, pack away small (have you ever tried to pack leathers??) and be machine washable. We can hope.
All the facts and wisdom are other peoples', all the errors are mine. I have no commercial relationship, other than as satisfied customer, with these firms.
A passing Hippie asked me: "Would you care to do me a paragraph or 2 for the FAQ on the delights of Kevlar(r) shirts and gloves?". Initially, I told the scrounging bastard to **** off and get a job, but in the end I acquiesced, not least because he pointed out that he had a job and that I did not.
I am somewhat of an advocate for "non-leather" motorcycle clothing. Not that I have anything against leather, I own (counts) three full race suits and four leather jackets. But it's just about the oldest fabric we use and, as a quondam Materials Scientist, I think that modern textiles can work better than a cow's backside in some motorcycling contexts. And they should be more predictable than leather, which is variable in quality, even in a single sheet.
Why is this?
Dr. Rod Woods
A clothing scientist and motorcyclist who got involved in the development of the CE standard for motorcycle protective equipment. I've attended some of Dr. Woods' talks and chatted with him on occasion. His statistical analysis of motorcyclists' injuries is the standard work for anyone thinking about what to wear on a motorcycle.
[Without digressing too far and going from memory, this says that injuries - now helmets are a given - get worse the further down the body you go, if you look at a picture of a human being standing upright, arms by their sides. So ankles need protection more than knees, hands need it as much as hips and shoulders are relatively unimportant - mainly because collarbones are "nature's crumple zone" and break anyway!]
Dr. Woods wears a KevlarŽ suit of his own design, with the body armour which he designed and patented. He wears conventional knitted KevlarŽ "glass handling" gloves and a pair of old paratrooper boots - because they are waterproof and very, very stiff.
So what is this wonder material?
KEVLARŽ comes from DuPont and is 5 times stronger than steel on an equal weight basis, yet, at the same time, is lightweight, flexible and comfortable. It is also a unique yellow colour and very difficult to dye to other colours, so you can usually see when KevlarŽ has been used in a garment.
Two research scientists, Stephanie Kwolek and Herbert Blades, working in a corporate lab created this remarkable aramid fibre in 1965. Fibres of KEVLARŽ consist of long molecular chains produced from poly-paraphenylene terephthalamide. The chains are highly oriented with strong interchain bonding which result in a unique combination of properties: Because of the superior protection it provides, KEVLARŽ brand fibre quickly became the technology of choice for bullet-resistant vests. Police officers have relied on the KEVLARŽ brand for more than 25 years.
KEVLARŽ para-aramid fibre possesses a remarkable combination of properties:
* High Tensile Strength at Low Weight
* Low Elongation to Break High Modulus (Structural Rigidity)
* Low Electrical Conductivity
* High Chemical Resistance
* Low Thermal Shrinkage
* High Toughness (Work-To-Break)
* Excellent Dimensional Stability
* High Cut Resistance
* Flame Resistant, Self-Extinguishing
Applications of KEVLARŽ:
* Small-diameter, lightweight ropes that hold 22,000 pounds and help moor the largest U.S. Navy vessels
* Shrapnel-resistant shielding in jet aircraft engines that will protect passengers in case an explosion occurs
* Gloves that protect hands and fingers against cuts, slashes and other injuries that often occur in glass and sheet metal factories
* Kayaks that provide better impact resistance with no extra weight
* And - of course - motorcycle protective gear.
Performance Bikes Magazine
When Performance Bikes' John Robinson tested unlined (summer) leather gloves, Dr. Woods persuaded him to use a pair of knitted Kevlar "glass handling" gloves as a 'control'. They tested the gloves by placing a standard sized wooden puck in each glove (palm down, as Dr. Wood's research shows that people slide with palms down). The glove was then pressed on a linishing machine [a giant belt sander] with a set force and the distance: time to wear through was measured.
The KevlarŽ won, of course. In fact, it beat the best unlined gloves by a factor of three: you would slide three times as far before the road hurt your hands in KevlarŽ gloves than you would in the best leather gloves. As confirmation, CPPT (no, I don't know who these people are!) data shows that KevlarŽ is up to five times more cut resistant than leather, which is why it is used in the glass industry.
And the best leather gloves cost from 6 to ten times what the KevlarŽ gloves cost. Even if you're wealthy, you probably don't replace your expensive summer gloves each year. But sweat etc. will weaken the leather and the stitching of the leather gloves - whereas (see above)KevlarŽ is almost inert. The PB tests were on new gloves - a more realistic test might have included gloves which had been worn for a few months .. in which case the KevlarŽ would probably have won by an even fatter margin than "three times better than leather".
KevlarŽ is NOT the solution in all situations.
Why don't Riders' Warehouse use KevlarŽ in their excellent and unreservedly recommended Roadcrafter suits? Their website (www.aerostich.com) has the following:
"We still choose CorduraŽ, not KevlarŽ. Here's why: Its advantages just don't make up for its disadvantages.
In pure, undiluted form, KevlarŽ is lighter than nylon and has greater tensile strength. It won't melt like nylon a fter touching a hot muffler (or from the friction-generated heat of a high speed slide on hot pavement). Unfortunately, it's expensive and difficult to work with, which limits design and construction possibilities. And believe it or not, pure KevlarŽ fabric actually is much less abrasion-resistant than Cordura nylon. KevlarŽ fibres have far less elasticity than CorduraŽ nylon fibres, a crucial handicap in a crash. Even the smoothest pavements have a rough aggregate surface that causes abrasive pulling. Nylon's stretchy fibres will elongate, ride over the surface irregularities, then snap back into the weave (like a tree bending in a strong wind), but KevlarŽ fibres quickly reach their tensile limit and snap.
To solve these problems, manufacturers blend KevlarŽ with LycraŽ and nylon. In this blend, "KevlarŽ" is only about one third actual KevlarŽ. This creates problems. Because of the additional nylon and LycraŽ, much of its slight weight advantage over CorduraŽ is lost. It also loses some of its fire-resistant qualities. The blended KevlarŽ fabric may burn or melt (just like nylon) when it comes in contact with a flame, hot component, or high frictional heat.
Some KevlarŽ suits may provide good crash performance because they are specifically designed for sanctioned competitive road racing. Roadcrafter suits aren't, but fortunately they're designed for everything else, including abrasion resistance at highway speeds.
We've tested (and will continue to test) CorduraŽ nylon against the alternatives. Its superior comfort, easy workability and excellent abrasion resistance make it our choice for quality, versatile, high performance riders' clothing. You've got a choice between the Roadcrafter and its proven record of outstanding abrasion performance, and something that costs more and delivers less. Guess what we recommend."
The fabric to which Riders' Warehouse appear to be referring is Schoeller K-protek. You'll find this in the knee and groin panels of some leathers and on the elbows and shoulders of the Scott "Road" jackets. It is not KevlarŽ, it is (as Riders' Warehouse correctly say) a blend of KevlarŽ with LycraŽ etc. It has its advantages, but it is NOT the best way to use KevlarŽ.
Other Advantages
Warm. Have you ever worn a string vest: Warm despite the holes, isn't it? The same is true of knitted KevlarŽ gloves. They are surprisingly warm on a 'bike. I wear mine quite early in the spring and quite late in the autumn. And, if the weather is really foul (e.g.: snow!), I'll wear waterproof mittens with the KevlarŽ under them, in preference to my winter gauntlets.
Dry quickly. KevlarŽ fibres do not absorb water. It comes in through the holes in the knit or the weave, but the fabric is impervious. So the gloves dry in instants, once the rain stops. If you've ever met a summer downpour in unlined leather gloves (and had the dye leach out onto your hands, as like as not) you might find KevlarŽ a better bet.
Washable. Do your sweaty gloves offend people and attract dogs? My (three year old) KevlarŽ gloves are clean, because they are machine washable. I use KevlarŽ for off road riding, because moto-x gloves are usually of dire quality and because you can wash the mud out of them.
Fireproof. I bought (mail order) two sets of "double layer" KevlarŽ gloves. They turned out to be too thick for comfortable 'bike use, so I gave one pair to a pal (they only cost about 15 pounds a pair) and kept the other set for welding gloves. Said pal runs a training centre and has BIG barbeques every week through the summer. Not only can you lift the grill off the - half oil drum - barbie while wearing these gloves to add more charcoal; you can stir the burning coals with your gloved hand!
Personal Choice
I have four KevlarŽ motorcycling garments:
* Medium weight KevlarŽ knitted gloves from ARCO Safety Supplies. Yellow. Cost under ten pounds a pair. I've added Velcro(tm) wrist straps to stop them coming off in a slide. Best buy! ARCO has branches all over the UK, so you can buy face-to-face, which allows you to try their three or four different types of KevlarŽ gloves first. (see below for product details)
* Dragin' Jeans' knitted KevlarŽ gloves. Cost about 15 pounds a pair. Come in black (which is why I got them) and with the Velcro(tm) already on. Not worth the premium, unless you can't face yellow gloves or adding wrist straps. Don't bother.
* Dragin' Jeans' knitted KevlarŽ sweatshirt. Designed for riding in Australia (where leathers can be too hot!). I wear this under a denim jacket or rugby shirt for rides in hot weather. Or you could wear it under a waterproof jacket, for added protection. Sadly, this top was expensive (about 60 pounds) as it's made for the relatively small motorcycle market. The glass handling gloves are cheap because the glass industry buys millions of pairs a year. It's black, but KevlarŽ does not dye well and it fades very quickly. If you will ever (e.g.) ride across the Karoo desert in 45 decrees of heat, this is a must. If you'd never, ever ride without a heavy jacket, it's not worth it.
* Hood Jeans' armoured / KevlarŽ lined jeans. Feel like jeans (especially if you fit Heine Gericke's Hiprotek armour in place of the bulky armour they suggest), but protect like GOOD leathers in a slide. Let me stress that bit: these jeans have acres of KevlarŽ in them, so they will be VERY tough in a slide. Probably far tougher than lightweight/ summer-weight leathers. I got a black pair (they do blue denim or cargo pants as alternatives) for around seventy pounds, inc. the armour and having them hemmed to length. Best buy!
Future
Draggin' Jeans say they will sell KevlarŽ long johns ... one day. These would allow you to wear any pair of trousers on a 'bike and still be "reasonably" safe.
One day - we hope - Dr. Rod Woods' suit made of KevlarŽ and other CLEVER MATERIALS may hit the market. It won't be cheap - probably 500 quid plus - but it would replace leathers, waterproofs ... everything in your 'biking wardrobe. And it will be light, comfy to wear, pack away small (have you ever tried to pack leathers??) and be machine washable. We can hope.
All the facts and wisdom are other peoples', all the errors are mine. I have no commercial relationship, other than as satisfied customer, with these firms.
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Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,414
Likes: 3
From: Corporate States of America
Hey Casper remember-It is better to look good than to feel good! (S.N.L. Fernando's hide away) lol
As for you cadman 311 -I don't really care what someone who cant' even type a coherent sentence thinks (or any one else for that matter).
As for you cadman 311 -I don't really care what someone who cant' even type a coherent sentence thinks (or any one else for that matter).