Properly Executed Emergency Stop VS "Laid It Down"
Road Master
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 785
Likes: 2
From: SE TN
I would really LIKE to believe this, but I think otherwise. I could probably "practice" all that stuff 8 hours a day 7 days a week. But If I'm faced with a situation where my mind goes into full on PANIC mode I think all the practice and preparation in the world goes right out the window.
Like you said, practicing things like short turns (looking "into" the turn) and balanced braking...etc can be learned. And they are easy to remember and do when you are relaxed. I can even remember to brake properly, not lock up the tires, keep the bike upright if I get into a slight bind where someone pulls in front of me.
Now let's say I'm in a situation where I look down for a second at a piece of gum I see stuck to my boot (it happens). I look back up to see a pick up truck stopped dead in front of me about 20 feet away and I'm doing like 60mph. I then lose all ability to think rationally, there I am bending the brake pedal in half. My life flashing before my eyes, different thoughts from my childhood rolling through my mind like a movie. Everything seems to go in slow motion (because of the adrenalin surge that I have no control over). You mind goes into full panic mode, some doctors would call that "Flight or Flee" mode. No matter how much you "practiced", I really don't believe you have any control over what your brain decides it wants to do in that situation. Just my opinion.
Another example: One of my good friends has trained his entire life doing Karate stuff. He's got some kind of brown "belt" in Karate, trained in Jujistsu and spent years training NJ state troopers in self defense. He's in his late 50's now. He worked as a bouncer part time. One night a bunch of drunken college football players pushed their way into the already overcrowded club he was working at. They tried telling them there wasn't enough room inside yet but these kids weren't taking NO for an answer. They stormed the place and basically attacked my friend. He said he started off doing all that kicking and karate chopping BS but as soon as he had 10 guys punching, kicking and smashing beer bottles on his head he found himself reverting back to regular old "boxing" to fend them off. He said he did it without being able to control himself. all those years of practice and training went right out the window when it came down to that time when he felt like he was going to die.
Like you said, practicing things like short turns (looking "into" the turn) and balanced braking...etc can be learned. And they are easy to remember and do when you are relaxed. I can even remember to brake properly, not lock up the tires, keep the bike upright if I get into a slight bind where someone pulls in front of me.
Now let's say I'm in a situation where I look down for a second at a piece of gum I see stuck to my boot (it happens). I look back up to see a pick up truck stopped dead in front of me about 20 feet away and I'm doing like 60mph. I then lose all ability to think rationally, there I am bending the brake pedal in half. My life flashing before my eyes, different thoughts from my childhood rolling through my mind like a movie. Everything seems to go in slow motion (because of the adrenalin surge that I have no control over). You mind goes into full panic mode, some doctors would call that "Flight or Flee" mode. No matter how much you "practiced", I really don't believe you have any control over what your brain decides it wants to do in that situation. Just my opinion.
Another example: One of my good friends has trained his entire life doing Karate stuff. He's got some kind of brown "belt" in Karate, trained in Jujistsu and spent years training NJ state troopers in self defense. He's in his late 50's now. He worked as a bouncer part time. One night a bunch of drunken college football players pushed their way into the already overcrowded club he was working at. They tried telling them there wasn't enough room inside yet but these kids weren't taking NO for an answer. They stormed the place and basically attacked my friend. He said he started off doing all that kicking and karate chopping BS but as soon as he had 10 guys punching, kicking and smashing beer bottles on his head he found himself reverting back to regular old "boxing" to fend them off. He said he did it without being able to control himself. all those years of practice and training went right out the window when it came down to that time when he felt like he was going to die.
Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,905
Likes: 4,877
From: Midwest
I don't think many people can say how they will really react in a panic situation until it actually happens to them. How can you? It is easy enough to analyze the options and strategy while sitting comfortable and safe.
There is lots of advice out there--don't target fixate, don't grab the brakes, etc. It is easy enough to do this when all is going well and you have the time and mental presence to analyze things. But but will you do all this when the time comes? When a deer or car jumps out in front of you unexpectadly and there is a split second between danger and safety, can you say you won't fixate on the object or won't grab a handfull of brake like a scalded ape? Will you have the mental presence to do what is required to swerve or brake safely? Until it happens, I don't think anyone can say. We are just guessing how we will react under a condition where there is an immediate onset of stress in a new scenario.
I defer to the advice we were given in MSF--Don't get cocky and always respect the bike, no matter how good a rider you think you are. Nobody out there is invulnerable. Never stop practicing your panic stops and swerves. Take all the training you can get to identify the bad habits that will hurt you when the crap does hit the fan.
There is lots of advice out there--don't target fixate, don't grab the brakes, etc. It is easy enough to do this when all is going well and you have the time and mental presence to analyze things. But but will you do all this when the time comes? When a deer or car jumps out in front of you unexpectadly and there is a split second between danger and safety, can you say you won't fixate on the object or won't grab a handfull of brake like a scalded ape? Will you have the mental presence to do what is required to swerve or brake safely? Until it happens, I don't think anyone can say. We are just guessing how we will react under a condition where there is an immediate onset of stress in a new scenario.
I defer to the advice we were given in MSF--Don't get cocky and always respect the bike, no matter how good a rider you think you are. Nobody out there is invulnerable. Never stop practicing your panic stops and swerves. Take all the training you can get to identify the bad habits that will hurt you when the crap does hit the fan.
Cruiser
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 189
Likes: 1
From: Fishers, IN
I didn't read most of the replies, because there's not much that will convince me that Laying It Down is the better option.
The ONLY time I would do something that would eject me from the bike purposely would be if somebody pulled out in front of me and I literally had NO time to get out of their way. Let's say it was an SUV and I was about to plow into their side... I would stop as much as I could ( I practice emergency braking monthly ), but if I knew I was going to hit, at the last second I would literally jump UP so I would clear said SUV instead of hitting it head on. You can survive better if you don't have a huge impact. I wear leathers and I'd prefer to slide on them AFTER clearing said car/truck than hitting the side of them and suffering a huge impact injury.
The ONLY time I would do something that would eject me from the bike purposely would be if somebody pulled out in front of me and I literally had NO time to get out of their way. Let's say it was an SUV and I was about to plow into their side... I would stop as much as I could ( I practice emergency braking monthly ), but if I knew I was going to hit, at the last second I would literally jump UP so I would clear said SUV instead of hitting it head on. You can survive better if you don't have a huge impact. I wear leathers and I'd prefer to slide on them AFTER clearing said car/truck than hitting the side of them and suffering a huge impact injury.
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 152
Likes: 1
From: Central Texas
Sure is an abundance of Pious, HolierThanThou advice here and I'm pretty confident the answers would be significantly different if one weren't allowed to spout an opinion unless having lived through this particular scenario. Fact is that rubber side down stops faster than metal on pavement but it is also a fact that going over the bars upon sudden impact is WAY less preferable to low siding on impact with the possibility of bracing for impact using leg strength...ask any bug on your windshield 
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 127
From: Coastal Carolina
Another example: One of my good friends has trained his entire life doing Karate stuff. He's got some kind of brown "belt" in Karate, trained in Jujistsu and spent years training NJ state troopers in self defense. He's in his late 50's now. He worked as a bouncer part time. One night a bunch of drunken college football players pushed their way into the already overcrowded club he was working at. They tried telling them there wasn't enough room inside yet but these kids weren't taking NO for an answer. They stormed the place and basically attacked my friend. He said he started off doing all that kicking and karate chopping BS but as soon as he had 10 guys punching, kicking and smashing beer bottles on his head he found himself reverting back to regular old "boxing" to fend them off. He said he did it without being able to control himself. all those years of practice and training went right out the window when it came down to that time when he felt like he was going to die.
The same is true of accident avoidance. If you practice in a parking lot, hitting the brakes when you get to the orange cone, it will help a little, but you rarely see the orange cones in real life situations. There is no substitute for years of experience avoiding real threats on the real streets. Sorry, but there's no short cut and there's no way to know when you have enough experience and how you will react until it's put to the test.
Last edited by TKDKurt; May 30, 2013 at 10:35 AM.
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 152
Likes: 1
From: Central Texas
I didn't read most of the replies, because there's not much that will convince me that Laying It Down is the better option.
The ONLY time I would do something that would eject me from the bike purposely would be if somebody pulled out in front of me and I literally had NO time to get out of their way. Let's say it was an SUV and I was about to plow into their side... I would stop as much as I could ( I practice emergency braking monthly ), but if I knew I was going to hit, at the last second I would literally jump UP so I would clear said SUV instead of hitting it head on. You can survive better if you don't have a huge impact. I wear leathers and I'd prefer to slide on them AFTER clearing said car/truck than hitting the side of them and suffering a huge impact injury.
The ONLY time I would do something that would eject me from the bike purposely would be if somebody pulled out in front of me and I literally had NO time to get out of their way. Let's say it was an SUV and I was about to plow into their side... I would stop as much as I could ( I practice emergency braking monthly ), but if I knew I was going to hit, at the last second I would literally jump UP so I would clear said SUV instead of hitting it head on. You can survive better if you don't have a huge impact. I wear leathers and I'd prefer to slide on them AFTER clearing said car/truck than hitting the side of them and suffering a huge impact injury.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 27,233
Likes: 31,633
From: Florida
laid mine down last September, but brakes had nothing to do with it. Started raining on me, and took a turn too wide. When I looked down and saw grass under the tire I knew it was gone so I just let go so we could go in different directions. I bounced off the pavement 3 times, and luckily the bike went down in the grass. I got up with a few scratches, picked the bike up and parked it under a tree and got a ride to work Couldn't afford to miss out on holiday pay. Some bruised bruised ribs and scratches.... not bad for 55mph. My only regret is not slowing down when the rain hit.
Road Captain
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 686
Likes: 29
From: Niceville
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Joe Kucinski
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,126
Likes: 550
From: Springfield, IL
That reminds me of an old Bill Cosby bit about being in an elevator that is crashing, waiting till the last second and jumping up. lol
Jim
Last edited by stereoguy; May 30, 2013 at 11:12 AM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 116
From: Raleigh, NC
If I'm "going to hit," I'm going to stay upright as long as possible to reduce speed as much as possible.
In the time it takes you to lay your bike down in a situation that doesn't allow you to completely stop, you can drastically reduce your speed. I'd rather high-side at 30mph than low-side into an obstacle at 60mph.
In the time it takes you to lay your bike down in a situation that doesn't allow you to completely stop, you can drastically reduce your speed. I'd rather high-side at 30mph than low-side into an obstacle at 60mph.
If you think that you can significantly slow down your bike in the time that it takes to lay it down, you're kidding yourself.
Almost anyone could lay a bike down in a second regardless of speed. How much do you think you could slow yourself down in one second by staying upright?
If you can slow from 60 to 30 before hitting, then I suggest you had enough time to avoid hitting to begin with. There's that skill thing again.
AND, if you did slow from 60 to 30 before hitting, why wouldn't you then lay it down and do a low-side at 40 instead of a high-side at 30???
You guys that are arguing with me: I'm responding to those who say that laying it down is some sort of cop-out, and I'm coming from the perspective of having only a second or so to react and act before hitting.
If you're doing 40 mph, how much are you going to slow down in 1 second before hitting? How much are you going to slow down in that second by skidding on that rubber to bring it down on to its side? Some seem to think there's no rubber involved in a low-side.