Without getting all defensive....
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2013
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From: Myrtle Beach,SC
Why would someone come to this forum to ask such a question.
Every manufacturer has issues and some never get attention, I own my first Harley as of March and have not found any obvious items as mentioned so brand loyalty is clearly not my motivation, what's yours OP?
Every manufacturer has issues and some never get attention, I own my first Harley as of March and have not found any obvious items as mentioned so brand loyalty is clearly not my motivation, what's yours OP?
I know you are not used to people questioning" they just go buy because its a Harley "Gwtdammm" Davidson ..no questions allowed. They just want a Harley... So you have your first HD for three whole months and have not had an issue and that's a brand virtue?
Last edited by TenMidgets; Jul 8, 2013 at 10:47 AM.
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2013
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From: Myrtle Beach,SC
Why does it take so long to fix design issues?
Because manufacturers buy parts from vendors. They choose these vendors from bids submitted and the lowest bid wins. Let's take wheel bearings for example. Harley buys 500,000 wheel bearings from a vendor. They build 250,000 bikes with these bearings. 10,000 miles later they begin to fail. Harley takes these bearings and analyzes them to determine what made them fail. Did they meet the specs that Harley gave the vendor? Did an outside force cause them to fail? Were they installed correctly? If by some chance the bearing is truly at fault by design, then Harley goes back to the vendor and alerts them of the problem. The vendor then retools to make a different bearing. During this retooling time, Harley has purchased another 1,000,000 bearings and assembled more motorcycles. Why? Because the vendor now has to warranty these bearings to Harley. They only have to warranty the ones that Harley returns to them. So all the people involved are just hoping that the majority of these bearings will sit in some garage until the warranty expires, and then it's the customers dime. Build them cheap, and hope that they don't fail while under warranty. Bike and car manufacturers are like every other profit driven business. They don't make products to last forever, just to outlast the warranty.
Because manufacturers buy parts from vendors. They choose these vendors from bids submitted and the lowest bid wins. Let's take wheel bearings for example. Harley buys 500,000 wheel bearings from a vendor. They build 250,000 bikes with these bearings. 10,000 miles later they begin to fail. Harley takes these bearings and analyzes them to determine what made them fail. Did they meet the specs that Harley gave the vendor? Did an outside force cause them to fail? Were they installed correctly? If by some chance the bearing is truly at fault by design, then Harley goes back to the vendor and alerts them of the problem. The vendor then retools to make a different bearing. During this retooling time, Harley has purchased another 1,000,000 bearings and assembled more motorcycles. Why? Because the vendor now has to warranty these bearings to Harley. They only have to warranty the ones that Harley returns to them. So all the people involved are just hoping that the majority of these bearings will sit in some garage until the warranty expires, and then it's the customers dime. Build them cheap, and hope that they don't fail while under warranty. Bike and car manufacturers are like every other profit driven business. They don't make products to last forever, just to outlast the warranty.
They may be able to try a bit harder but the economy is definitely in rough shape, and has been for a few years now. I feel a lot of what they do is to help keep them afloat and still leave themselves room for new models or changes. Any motorcycle company produces bikes with certain issues in certain year models, it happens. The good thing is we have these forums now to share our issues with one another so we are more aware than ever before.
Also remember, when you hear of problems with a bike you are only hearing from that small percentage of owners that have the problems and not the vast majority that don't see these issues. That is with any company as well. Some problems are worse than others, some not so much.
Another issue is I liken the difference in maintenance on a motorcycle vs a car to the difference between a helicopter and an airplane. The motorcycle needs a higher level of maintenance for safety sake than a car. I don't think that a lot of owners treat motorcycle maintenance as serious as they should. A component failure on a bike can be way more catastrophic than on a car and regardless of manufacturer a bike should be properly maintained and inspected on a regular basis.
Also remember, when you hear of problems with a bike you are only hearing from that small percentage of owners that have the problems and not the vast majority that don't see these issues. That is with any company as well. Some problems are worse than others, some not so much.
Another issue is I liken the difference in maintenance on a motorcycle vs a car to the difference between a helicopter and an airplane. The motorcycle needs a higher level of maintenance for safety sake than a car. I don't think that a lot of owners treat motorcycle maintenance as serious as they should. A component failure on a bike can be way more catastrophic than on a car and regardless of manufacturer a bike should be properly maintained and inspected on a regular basis.
Last edited by TenMidgets; Jul 8, 2013 at 10:50 AM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Driftless Area
OP, I feel your pain. I won't buy a first-year ANYTHING. Let the newbies play with their warranty, and feel superior about the latest and greatest. In the meantime, I'll keep riding my higher-mileage stuff that has been around long enough to...not only have the bugs worked out, but actually be truly improved upon. You can throw money around to stay current, or you can spend it on things that would blow the warranty anyway. The knowledge gained by getting to that point makes me happier and more confident than any warranty or (really stupid) extended warranty ever could.
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Joined: Jan 2012
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From: San Diego
This issue is well documented. HD almost lost everything, but the company was saved with the Evo. HD sold more bikes than ever. For the first time, HD was making a very reliable, owner maintand bike. Sales number skyrocketed. Fast forward about 10 years, HD was still making the Evo, but realized that it was not making money on new bike sales. As a corporation, with the goal of selling more new bikes, HD realized it needed to change from a one-buy bike to a bike were the purchaser would come back every three years or so and buy a new bike. HD's perfect customer is someone who is constantly financing a bike for the rest of their life, not someone who buys just one bike and has no need for a new bike because the one he purchased is so reliable and user friendly mechanically speaking.
This change required building in obsolescence, and making the bike less owner maintenance friendly. It also included cutting costs so shareholders could enjoy more profit.
HD wants everyone to buy a new bike every two or three years. That is the only way they make money for their shareholders. Gone are the days when HD made a very reliable, owner friendly bike. They made no money. And as a corporation, HD's sole responsibility is to the shareholder, not the purchaser.
This change required building in obsolescence, and making the bike less owner maintenance friendly. It also included cutting costs so shareholders could enjoy more profit.
HD wants everyone to buy a new bike every two or three years. That is the only way they make money for their shareholders. Gone are the days when HD made a very reliable, owner friendly bike. They made no money. And as a corporation, HD's sole responsibility is to the shareholder, not the purchaser.
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. POT of gold it is.
I was wondering when someone would get around to mentioning the Planned Obsolesence Theory.
Is POT true? I don't know. Not saying it's fact or fiction, just saying that some conspiracies perpetuated by underhanded people, and underhanded corporations, are hard to prove and easy to get away with. For example, there are accountants and lawyers who swear they can't account for some of the charges on their cell phone bill, when they look at the bill they get dizzy.
Those who ride a late model reliable HD shoot the POT theory down while those who ride a late model lemon swear it must be true.
Classic Example of a Corporate American Conspiracy Perpetuated Against the People: http://www.kcrlegal.com/phone-company-charges.aspx
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Joined: Mar 2009
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From: Niles Canyon Ca.
Post # 39.
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. POT of gold it is.
I was wondering when someone would get around to mentioning the Planned Obsolesence Theory.
Is POT true? I don't know. Not saying it's fact or fiction, just saying that some conspiracies perpetuated by underhanded people, and underhanded corporations, are hard to prove and easy to get away with. For example, there are accountants and lawyers who swear they can't account for some of the charges on their cell phone bill, when they look at the bill they get dizzy.
Those who ride a late model reliable HD shoot the POT theory down while those who ride a late model lemon swear it must be true.
Classic Example of a Corporate American Conspiracy Perpetuated Against the People: http://www.kcrlegal.com/phone-company-charges.aspx
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. POT of gold it is.
I was wondering when someone would get around to mentioning the Planned Obsolesence Theory.
Is POT true? I don't know. Not saying it's fact or fiction, just saying that some conspiracies perpetuated by underhanded people, and underhanded corporations, are hard to prove and easy to get away with. For example, there are accountants and lawyers who swear they can't account for some of the charges on their cell phone bill, when they look at the bill they get dizzy.
Those who ride a late model reliable HD shoot the POT theory down while those who ride a late model lemon swear it must be true.
Classic Example of a Corporate American Conspiracy Perpetuated Against the People: http://www.kcrlegal.com/phone-company-charges.aspx
Welcome to the Global Economy ..........................................
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 21,732
Likes: 17,569
From: Driftless Area
We see that stuff a lot. Our customer designs a part poorly. Usually this is a result of inexperienced engineers, and (after pointing out the flaw) make you go through all the impressive quality tools (Failure Mode & Effects Analysis, Statistical Process Control, etc.) that they learned in "skool", but in fact have themselves never used in the first place. In the end, they agree to a design change (their cost now, since we already built the tooling per their specifications). Meanwhile, I've got 140,000 of something that we already produced at their insistence. Don't expect ME to eat it. They have to decide to purge the old stock (also their cost), or use it until the new design kicks in. Guess which one they pick? This is why everything gets made in China. You still get crap, but it's cheaper crap. We can do better, but fail to follow our own advice, because greed dictates that they don't lose any more money in a market they're having trouble competing with already.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,511
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From: Pa.
The whole parts thing has been well covered in here already many times and coming from the auto assembly industry it's spot on . Cheapest bidder & subcontractor gets the job and it bites everybody in the *** constantly . Harley is far from the only company doing it trust me even the big names in the auto industry like Toyota who built their reputation on longevity & quality is constantly battling and losing to substandard part suppliers .
Welcome to the Global Economy ..........................................
Welcome to the Global Economy ..........................................
Thread Starter
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,012
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From: Myrtle Beach,SC
Ever see a babe that is SOOooo smokin' HOTT that every single guy wants her?
Why should she be anything but a royal biotch? Treats guys like crap, takes their money & gifts, and they keep coming back for more. And, she KNOWS they will no matter how badly she treats 'em.
Sound familiar?
Why should she be anything but a royal biotch? Treats guys like crap, takes their money & gifts, and they keep coming back for more. And, she KNOWS they will no matter how badly she treats 'em.
Sound familiar?
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Thread Starter
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,012
Likes: 53
From: Myrtle Beach,SC
OP, I feel your pain. I won't buy a first-year ANYTHING. Let the newbies play with their warranty, and feel superior about the latest and greatest. In the meantime, I'll keep riding my higher-mileage stuff that has been around long enough to...not only have the bugs worked out, but actually be truly improved upon. You can throw money around to stay current, or you can spend it on things that would blow the warranty anyway. The knowledge gained by getting to that point makes me happier and more confident than any warranty or (really stupid) extended warranty ever could.
I have learned among today's HD riders, there are two groups of people I likely won't get straight information from and may even be be rude and condescending. New bike owners and dyed in the wool Harley or nothing Kool-Aid drinkers. Some of the latter are fair and understand and do share good information and don't feel like they have to run to the defense of their precious Mommy HOG. But sifting through the Orange and Black fog can be difficult sometimes.
The guys in the middle seem to know more and are more forthcoming about the Harley Davidson of today and their bikes. Thankfully they are still around.
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Joined: Jan 2011
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From: Wisconsin, USA
All I know is I have been enjoying my 2003 FLHTCUI for 20k miles in the last 2 years, with only normal maintenance, and last week I needed the gas coupling replaced.
One $100 repair on a 10 year old bike. I had a lot more repairs on my Kawasaki Vulcan 750.
And I didn't get why people love their Harley's until I owned one. You sound like an angry little man.
One $100 repair on a 10 year old bike. I had a lot more repairs on my Kawasaki Vulcan 750.
And I didn't get why people love their Harley's until I owned one. You sound like an angry little man.