Auto Tune, how does it work ?
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16,271
Likes: 15,108
From: Somewhere SW
I really think the OP needs to clarify what he means by Auto Tune
Is he referring to the PowerVision Basic Auto Tune?
Is he referring to the PowerVision Pro Auto Tune?
Is he referring to the PowerCommander V Auto Tune function?
Is he referring to something else?
Since most of the responses have been geared toward the PowerVision and EFI systems in general and he claims his questions have not been answered I will take a WAG that he is referring to the PowerCommander V.
Maybe this will help
All the Auto Tune methods using the DynoJet tuners mentioned above will only work in closed loop.
They work differently and auto tune different things depending on the tuner being used.
Since the PCV Auto Tune module uses wide band sensors it would work.
The OP asked for detailed explanations, and he certainly got some! This thread alone could have saved me reading thousands of other posts and documents to learn this stuff.
Is he referring to the PowerVision Basic Auto Tune?
Is he referring to the PowerVision Pro Auto Tune?
Is he referring to the PowerCommander V Auto Tune function?
Is he referring to something else?
Since most of the responses have been geared toward the PowerVision and EFI systems in general and he claims his questions have not been answered I will take a WAG that he is referring to the PowerCommander V.
Maybe this will help
All the Auto Tune methods using the DynoJet tuners mentioned above will only work in closed loop.
They work differently and auto tune different things depending on the tuner being used.
Since the PCV Auto Tune module uses wide band sensors it would work.
The OP asked for detailed explanations, and he certainly got some! This thread alone could have saved me reading thousands of other posts and documents to learn this stuff.
The 14.3 hypothetical that the OP is using led me to believe he was inquiring about a basic (using stock 02 sensors) auto tune, which I'm well familiar with.
Of course using wide band 02s would cover a larger afr range.
Now my question would be does Target Tune or any other top of the line tuner correct ignition timing?
Does it offer timing change suggestions?
Will it help set for optimal ignition timing or is this left up to the person doing the tuning?
VEs and fuel are easy but what about ignition timing..?
Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 11,470
Likes: 3,572
From: Idaho
Thanks Clay, I have PM'ed you.
My main question on the auto tune function, is that bearing in mind the 02 senors don't work at say 14.3 is " How/what does it sense/detect, so that it makes the changes ?"
But I think I'll take a break until someone accurately answers my question.
Thanks
Dave
My main question on the auto tune function, is that bearing in mind the 02 senors don't work at say 14.3 is " How/what does it sense/detect, so that it makes the changes ?"
But I think I'll take a break until someone accurately answers my question.
Thanks
Dave
The reason the O2 sensors are called "narrow band" is this: An O2 sensor generates a voltage when it is exposed to O2, in exactly the same way that a thermocouple generates a voltage when it is exposed to heat. The O2 sensor generates a changing voltage inside a specific range of O2 values. Outside that range of O2 values the output voltage will no longer change in a linear manner as the O2 levels change and thus is outside the usable range of the sensor.
When the MAP/RPM/throttle position values go outside a set parametric limit then the ECM program knows that the O2 sensor output is no longer usable, and the ECM defaults to the VE lookup table.
Is that what you're looking for?
Last edited by IdahoHacker; Nov 29, 2015 at 01:19 PM.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Ny
I have been following all the post 90% over my head but still interesting. Any way I ran a target tune this weekend i did some short trips maybe 10 minutes and then worked off of those the last was almost a hour got a lot of red boxes I'm sure someone can tell me what they mean. Only took it around the block seems to run really good didn't get any decel popping. Thank you and Merry Christmas
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
Jim. Glad to here things are working out.
If you post up a log from about an hour long ride, people with MLV HD can snoop at the tune and verify everything is working as expected. The list of fields that needes to be logged is
Front CLI,
Front AFF,
RPM,
Rear CLI,
Rear AFF,
Gear,
Acel Enr,
Set AFR,
MAP,
TP,
Decl Enl,
AFR1,
AFR2,
VE Front,
VE New Front,
VE New Rear,
VE Rear
IAT,
IDC.F,
IDC.R,
Idle Set,
VSS
If you post up a log from about an hour long ride, people with MLV HD can snoop at the tune and verify everything is working as expected. The list of fields that needes to be logged is
Front CLI,
Front AFF,
RPM,
Rear CLI,
Rear AFF,
Gear,
Acel Enr,
Set AFR,
MAP,
TP,
Decl Enl,
AFR1,
AFR2,
VE Front,
VE New Front,
VE New Rear,
VE Rear
IAT,
IDC.F,
IDC.R,
Idle Set,
VSS
Last edited by whittlebeast; Nov 30, 2015 at 11:25 AM.
Thread Starter
|
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 113
Likes: 4
From: Dartmouth, Devon, UK
Any sort of auto tune is questionable ?
I am sorry, my questions still have not been fully answered here. I'm not going to repeat them again as that would be condescending, but see post #1.
At the biggest Bike Show in the UK today (110,000 visitors over the week expected) I asked Dynojet, they said with narrow band o2 sensors any sort of auto tune was questionable, even though they market it. But with wide band it would be perfect.
The technical guy on the Vance & Hines stand, point blank refused to answer the question and was rude.
It a strange sort of way, this whole episode suggests that any sort of auto tune (or any similar name) with narrow band sensors is indeed questionable, as it is not really possible as the o2 sensors are incapable of providing the necessary feedback. This is a bit of a revelation and indeed an eye opener.
It looks like the best solution is a map obtained from a real rolling road dynamometer for a near identical bike. Or in other words the correct and accurate supply of a map is the key,
I would be happy to converse with any manufacturer directly at a technical level.
At the biggest Bike Show in the UK today (110,000 visitors over the week expected) I asked Dynojet, they said with narrow band o2 sensors any sort of auto tune was questionable, even though they market it. But with wide band it would be perfect.
The technical guy on the Vance & Hines stand, point blank refused to answer the question and was rude.
It a strange sort of way, this whole episode suggests that any sort of auto tune (or any similar name) with narrow band sensors is indeed questionable, as it is not really possible as the o2 sensors are incapable of providing the necessary feedback. This is a bit of a revelation and indeed an eye opener.
It looks like the best solution is a map obtained from a real rolling road dynamometer for a near identical bike. Or in other words the correct and accurate supply of a map is the key,
I would be happy to converse with any manufacturer directly at a technical level.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16,271
Likes: 15,108
From: Somewhere SW
I am sorry, my questions still have not been fully answered here. I'm not going to repeat them again as that would be condescending, but see post #1.
At the biggest Bike Show in the UK today (110,000 visitors over the week expected) I asked Dynojet, they said with narrow band o2 sensors any sort of auto tune was questionable, even though they market it. But with wide band it would be perfect.
The technical guy on the Vance & Hines stand, point blank refused to answer the question and was rude.
It a strange sort of way, this whole episode suggests that any sort of auto tune (or any similar name) with narrow band sensors is indeed questionable, as it is not really possible as the o2 sensors are incapable of providing the necessary feedback. This is a bit of a revelation and indeed an eye opener.
It looks like the best solution is a map obtained from a real rolling road dynamometer for a near identical bike. Or in other words the correct and accurate supply of a map is the key,
I would be happy to converse with any manufacturer directly at a technical level.
At the biggest Bike Show in the UK today (110,000 visitors over the week expected) I asked Dynojet, they said with narrow band o2 sensors any sort of auto tune was questionable, even though they market it. But with wide band it would be perfect.
The technical guy on the Vance & Hines stand, point blank refused to answer the question and was rude.
It a strange sort of way, this whole episode suggests that any sort of auto tune (or any similar name) with narrow band sensors is indeed questionable, as it is not really possible as the o2 sensors are incapable of providing the necessary feedback. This is a bit of a revelation and indeed an eye opener.
It looks like the best solution is a map obtained from a real rolling road dynamometer for a near identical bike. Or in other words the correct and accurate supply of a map is the key,
I would be happy to converse with any manufacturer directly at a technical level.
Did the Dynojet guy explain to you what auto tune does and what it alters?
OK, so we all believe Harley tune on the lean side. So you get a tuner and on a simple Stage 1 the AFR tables are richer. Job done, or is it ?
So Auto Tune :
What does it do ?
What does it alter ?
How/what does it sense/detect, so that it makes the changes ?
In other words, if at a point the AFR was 14.6 and the new map is 14.3, doesn't that tell the ECU what to do ?
What is the Auto Tuner actually doing then ? Is it altering the map ? If so on what sensed information ? and why ?
I'm looking for a detailed explanation please ?
Thanks
So Auto Tune :
What does it do ?
What does it alter ?
How/what does it sense/detect, so that it makes the changes ?
In other words, if at a point the AFR was 14.6 and the new map is 14.3, doesn't that tell the ECU what to do ?
What is the Auto Tuner actually doing then ? Is it altering the map ? If so on what sensed information ? and why ?
I'm looking for a detailed explanation please ?
Thanks
Also I would add that there is no substitute for the actual owner of the bike riding the bike.
Dynos are nice but they simulate riding conditions where as the owner on the bike, riding the bike delivers the real deal.
Last edited by JustDave13; Nov 30, 2015 at 03:26 PM.
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
I am not convinced that all narrow band tunes are junk. Far from that....
You do need to understand the limits and capabilities of a narrow band. The problems that come to light with narrowbands is when you try to utilize them and rely on them way outside the reasonable operating range.
With my personal bike, I was shocked just how close I got using the narrowbands. Even deep into the throttle. That bike and the tuning processed tuning it helped develop lots of the tuning logic now used on the market.
Andy
You do need to understand the limits and capabilities of a narrow band. The problems that come to light with narrowbands is when you try to utilize them and rely on them way outside the reasonable operating range.
With my personal bike, I was shocked just how close I got using the narrowbands. Even deep into the throttle. That bike and the tuning processed tuning it helped develop lots of the tuning logic now used on the market.
Andy
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Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16,271
Likes: 15,108
From: Somewhere SW
I am not convinced that all narrow band tunes are junk. Far from that....
You do need to understand the limits and capabilities of a narrow band. The problems that come to light with narrowbands is when you try to utilize them and rely on them way outside the reasonable operating range.
With my personal bike, I was shocked just how close I got using the narrowbands. Even deep into the throttle. That bike and the tuning processed tuning it helped develop lots of the tuning logic now used on the market.
Andy
You do need to understand the limits and capabilities of a narrow band. The problems that come to light with narrowbands is when you try to utilize them and rely on them way outside the reasonable operating range.
With my personal bike, I was shocked just how close I got using the narrowbands. Even deep into the throttle. That bike and the tuning processed tuning it helped develop lots of the tuning logic now used on the market.
Andy
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 191
Likes: 14
From: Naples Fl.
My not so technical take on auto tune is as follows, at least on the Vance & Hines version. Narrow band sensors are only accurate in a narrow window where as wide band operates in a wider range, not so hard
. In the V&H literature it states that during the auto-tune segment of populating the ecu tables prior to download, the motor often tends to run raged until such time that you manually download the collected information to the ecu. My best guess is that the tuner is varying the mixture to the engine until it gets into the narrow band window that it knows is accurate, that's why it runs ruff during the learn cycle. After varying the mixture from rich to lean it sees what it believes to be an accurate narrow band reading, it records that reading to the cell that correlates to the different variables being looked at. After filling in 100 to 200 cells on the matrix it gets to the point that it can reliably predict the proper mixture for the condition sensed. I am more than likely wrong, but it's my best guess.
So if the wide band sensor can make an accurate tune in one try, the narrow band sensor may take 2 or 3 sessions to get to where the wide band is in one. If I'm wrong I wouldn't be surprised because I am making a few assumptions that I believe to be true but may not be. I am looking forward to comments from those more knowledgeable than I, so that I might be one step closer to understanding how auto tune works.
. In the V&H literature it states that during the auto-tune segment of populating the ecu tables prior to download, the motor often tends to run raged until such time that you manually download the collected information to the ecu. My best guess is that the tuner is varying the mixture to the engine until it gets into the narrow band window that it knows is accurate, that's why it runs ruff during the learn cycle. After varying the mixture from rich to lean it sees what it believes to be an accurate narrow band reading, it records that reading to the cell that correlates to the different variables being looked at. After filling in 100 to 200 cells on the matrix it gets to the point that it can reliably predict the proper mixture for the condition sensed. I am more than likely wrong, but it's my best guess. So if the wide band sensor can make an accurate tune in one try, the narrow band sensor may take 2 or 3 sessions to get to where the wide band is in one. If I'm wrong I wouldn't be surprised because I am making a few assumptions that I believe to be true but may not be. I am looking forward to comments from those more knowledgeable than I, so that I might be one step closer to understanding how auto tune works.
Last edited by wparente; Nov 30, 2015 at 05:15 PM.