2019 HD Softail Lowrider (FXLR)

Cobra - Fi2000 PowrPro Black Tuner

Vs.

Vance & Hines - Fuelpak3 (FP3)

Vs.

Dynojet – Powervision

Vs.

Zipper’s - Thundermax EFI







Hello everyone,



I want to share my experience in the search of a proper tuner for my 2019 HD Softail Lowrider. I had time to put a few thousand miles on each of the tuners listed in this post, and so, I felt it might help some of you in making a decision when it comes to setting up your motorcycle’s brain. Specifically, the Milwaukee 8 generation of Harley-Davidson motorcycles.



Function Explained:

Fi2000 PowrPro Black Tuner - Piggyback system, works “live” by adjusting AFR(air-fuel-ratio)as you operate the motorcycle. Used in conjunction with phone app for very limited setting modifications.

Fuelpak3 (FP3) - Works by overwriting some of the values on the HD ECU. Has some nice features, along with pleasant to use phone app interface. The level of map and ECM setting customization is far greater than the Cobra PowerPro Black Tuner. Additionally, the installation is the simplest of all systems mentioned in this post. Has ‘auto-learning’ features for tuning, which can be used to modify the active map after the motorcycle has been ridden. No live changes are made while bike is in motion.

Powervision - Nature of operation is the same as the Fuelpak 3. However, the way the whole process is handled is different from the Fuelpak. Powervision relies on being plugged into a computer from where the map and tuning modifications can be made. The built-in LCD display can also be used for limited tuning. UI is less sleek than Fuelpak but more robust, having an even greater level of customization than the latter, no live changes are made.

Thundermax EFI - Works by replacing the stock HD ECU. Longest installation process out of all systems mentioned here, also comes with 18mm O2 sensors (stock is 12mm). Works with stock alarm system. The system works by allowing you to select a map, as similar to your current setup, as possible, and then by suggesting adjustment points from learned autotune trips. No live tuning, the learned values must be appended to active map through user confirmation, requires a usb connection to computer.





Weaknesses:

Fi2000 PowrPro Black Tuner - 1. Outside of AFR richness settings, no other changes can be made to ECM, this is the most limited system.

Fuelpak3 (FP3) - 1. DOES NOT REMOVE SPEED LIMITER, DESPITE WHAT THEY SAY. 2. Less map/ECM customization than Powervision.

Powervision - 1. DOES NOT REMOVE SPEED LIMITER, DESPITE WHAT THEY SAY. 3. Bound by the same limitations as FP3 and PowrPro Black Tuner, so you are never free to really customize some key performance features. 2. More expensive than either Cobra or V&H systems.

Thundermax EFI - 1. Installation could have been thought out better by engineers - a. System should come with 12mm O2 sensors to eliminate need to modify exhaust. b. USB access to Thundermax EFI should be designed differently, to allow for easier access. 2. Most expensive.



Strengths:

Fi2000 PowrPro Black Tuner - 1. Simplest to use. 2. Never worry about proper tuning. 3. Most affordable

Fuelpak3 (FP3) - 1. Good amount of customization to ECU/map settings. 2. Nice UI and initial tune build. 3. Good customer service.

Powervision - 1. More tuning ability than FP3. 2. System can be used in a number of different configurations with ability to add on plenty of other add-ons to increase functionality. 3. Best customer service

Thundermax EFI - 1. NO ECM LIMITERS/DELAYS OF ANY KIND, INCLUDING NO SPEED LIMITER. 2. Changes the characteristics/feel of the motorcycle more than any of the other systems.





The only tuning system that was able to overcome the stock speed limiter is the Thundermax. Though both DynoJet and V&H claim to-be-able-to do the same, this turned out to be not true for a number of riders, to include myself.



So, if you want the simplest, get Cobra.

If you want greater customization and features go with either FP3 or Powervision. FP3 is sleeker, but PV is more powerful.

If you want raw power delivery, like that of a cable throttle, and don’t want any of the HD BS they fill your bike’s brain with, then look into something like Zipper’s Thundermax.



I hope this will help someone in making the right call when it comes to tuning their M8 HD. Best of luck and thank you for reading.

 

One of the things I think you'll find is that no one makes a wide band O2 sensor in 12 mm.

 

Good info but you left out the best tuner on the market—TTS beats them all hands down IMHO.

 

TTS does remove the speed limiter and is even more powerful with better built in tools. Best on the market IMO.

 

Appreciate the input Gentlemen, I have indeed heard good things about TTS, I will keep the knowledge in mind.

 

You are incorrect in your statement about the PV not being able to remove the speed limiters.
one other device you did not mention is the Direct Link, from Techno Research, also a flash tuning system like the TTS and PV.
m

 

Waddup! Appreciate the input, in my experience neither FP3 nor PV were able to remove the limiters even after having my map adjusted by cust support. I can also confirm the FP3 was unable to do so for at least one other person, also with a 2019 FXLR. Another thing I've noticed is the throttle response, seems like the HD Delphi ECU does something to the rider's input that causes a delay, no matter how you set your throttle responses with the FP3/PV it never goes away, I do not notice the same issue with the TM. I am neither trained nor a tech, so I do not know how much there is behind all that, but I can say for the first time my bike feels like a real performance machine, actually reminds me of my sportbike days. I am a fan of TM, though I wouldn't mind giving a shot with the TTS, sounds like a solid product, especially since the guy who created it is also the guy who made the Harley Screamin tuners.

vr,
ez

 

Only way to get rid of the speed limitation with the PV is to unplug the sensor. This is how most tuner are getting to redline in 6th gear for dyno charts. The throttle response can be addressed with either of the better flash based tuners. (TTS, PV, or TR) Or ones that give you a good throttle blade control table, collecting data and setting it up so at max throttle opening for a rpm. You are getting your highest kpa reading. Not to be confused with max throttle opening at 100% and achieving less than max kpa. Remember the goal is max cylinder fill not throttle blade opening. All part of tuning the combination of parts in front of you and another area "auto tune" means nothing.

 

Solid breakdown Sir, thank you for the info.
I have definitely made all of the blade control adjustments and left everything wide open in all positions. However, even with all settings as free as possible, there is still a numbness to the way bike responds to the input, almost like there is a split second delay between your input and when it's allowed to take affect. Maybe I just got a crappy ecu from the factory, seems like folks are happy with FP3 and PV, just never did me justice.

 

I rarely have the throttle go 1:1 if that is what you mean as free. I have found less power and throttle response that way. Lower TQ as well. Look at CV carbs. Yes, the throttle blade slams open but the slide does not. The slide is suppose to open at the same rate as air is needed. Keeping the velocity up or at a constant. With throttle by wire. I don't want the blade to slam open. The slug of air entering the engine for a specific opening has velocity. Now you just made a big hole and killed all the velocity. The air and velocity need to catch up and there is the delay.

Why I mention KPA. Natural aspirated engine of course. On normal day or 1 bar of pressure, The most air you can get into an engine to make the rpm you desire is 100kpa. Meaning you are getting all of atmospheric pressure in your cylinder. Or you are getting the most cylinder fill you possibly can. More throttle opening is not going to allow any more air into the cylinder at that rpm. BUT having the throttle blade opened more than is needed can also induce reversion ( or not control it as well) and even fuel stand off. In return can have the effect you are not getting max cylinder fill.

Here is what I actually see in the data for stuff like this while testing and tuning on my dyno. Set throttle blade control to 1:1. Set brake to hold rpm at 2500. Open throttle all the way and log throttle position and KPA. Slowly close throttle......... What you will see is that when throttle is 100%. KPA will be in the 90's but as you close the throttle blade. KPA will rise up to 100 and past a certain point of closure the kpa will start falling off again. Review log and you will see that max kpa will be down around 63-66% throttle and there is no reason to have it open anymore for that rpm. So, set the throttle blade control at 66% for that rpm, right? It's where the engine is getting the most cylinder fill. These same steps can be performed for all break points in the throttle control table. These number are just off the top of my head because TB size, exhaust scavenging, cam profile all will play a part. On the street it is a bit more tricky. But if you log some WOT runs. You should be seeing 100 kpa though out the acceleration while the TGS is 100%. If you are 100 at 2500 but kpa drops to 98 at 2750. The blade needs to be adjusted for the 2750 break point. Trial and error from there. What also need to kept in mind is the fuel side. Steady state 2000 and twisting TGS wide open will need fuel to also compensate for that rapid opening of the throttle blade and is where acceleration fuel table comes in, but the closer the VE tables represent the airflow of the engine. The less extra fuel will need to be added.

This is one of the reasons TTS is my preferred flash based tuner. Data master is well laid out and I can pick what I want to see in my graphs on one of my two 19 inch dyno computer monitors in real time as I am collecting the data. I can play back the data in the same program. Zoom in on any part of the data and use that data as I am making correction to the calibration in the master tune program because both programs can be open at the same time. Compared to jumping back and forth between screens in the same program or reviewing data and taking notes until I can get to the calibration part of the program. I mention this because of all the great debates on the internet about "best tuner" The actual user interface and how cumbersome some can be isn't mentioned as much as they actually are.