Ive asked this question as 'add-ons' to other ECM/SERT posts with no answers. So, I'm going to ask it here,with it's own topic -

According to the dealers I've spoken with, both here in Tennessee and in Illinois, if anyone wants to program the ECM for any reason, a SERT dongle must be purchased. That dongle 'marries' with the ECM andcan onlybe used withthat ECM for all mods. (It's the dongle that marries the ECM,multiple dongles can be used, but each one could only be used with the ECM it married to.) The dealers also stated that the service techs/dealers do not have a special 'open code' dongle so that they can program any bike/ECM in for service - the customer must purchase a SERT package.

If the above is true, can someone explain what a 'Stage I' street or competitiondownload is, and how does a dealer get it into the ECM without the customer buying a SERT?

What am I missing here? Is this whole Stage I thing a Motor Company revenue program, sham,or what?

My point would be to ask that if a 'Stage I' program can be loaded, or programmed, into an ECM for under $300 - $400 dollars including the SE air filter/back plate/breather plumbing, and without the $459.00 cost of a SERTto load the ECM, then why can't a dyno be done for just the cost of the tech/dyno timewithout having to by the SERT?

Same computer, same ECM software, same cables, same interface,same ECM hardware, same dealer, is used but more money with the added cost of theSERT for a dyno tune. Or, is it?

Any help here? Thanks.

'07 FLHTC Pewter Pearl
V & H Dresser Duals
'00 H-D Touring Mufflers/Turn Downs
Stage I Street (?)
Just 'nuff Chrome

 

Ok. Here is the deal.

The ECM can be programmed with canned maps by the dealer which are the "stage" downloads. The SERT allows a custom map to be modified and uploaded into the ECM. The general tools available to the dealer do not allow them upload anything else other than the "stage" maps. The computer, dongle, cables, SERT software and SERT allow more customization combinations.

So to answer your question, it could be done but that is not how it is delivered. The same delivery method to the ECM could be used to allow this, but the dealer simply does not have the physical capability to do it with the tools given from the factory. They must use the dongle/software combination of the SERT. At any given time the factory could deliver a map the same way (format) they deliver the "stage" downloads without the use of the dongle ie., the torque smoothing download for 07's.

So it is a money maker for them much like it is for the Power Commander, Fuelpack etc.

 

good info

 

Sorry TicToc, maybe in the land of Oz, Make Believe, Captain Hook, or Harley dealers, that answer might fly. But not in the land of microprocessors.(This is not a slam to you, please read on.)

To be clear about your answer, what you're telling me is that the dealership has something like a little hand-held calculator-type device that is pre-programmed to dump 'Stage 1, II, or III' into my bike. Every dealer with a shop, around the world,all of these pre-programmed boxes for every EFI motor (e.g. tc88, tc88b, tc96, etc., etc.) that Harley has made. You know this to be a fact, you've seen these boxes?

If not...

There's only two ways 'in' to the ECM. Once at the factory when it (the EPROM) gets flashed and through the data port after the ECM is installed on the bike.

If the dealer is dumping ANYTHING into the ECM, it's getting there through the data port. I really don't care if he's 'talking' to the ECM with a Buck Rogers Mystic Decoder Ring - he's dumping data to the ECM without the magical dongle. Also, it makes no difference if it's canned or not (after all, aren't all of the base maps that comeon the SERT CDROM'canned' before fine tuning?), it's data input (a change to the base map)to the ECM, and we don't have to buy the dongle to get that done. According to the software manual (on the CDROM) that came with my SERT, I can rename any of the canned maps to anything I want (even 'Stage IVIMCXM') save it, and re-load it at anytime in the future.

There's an answer out there, even if we have to break-in to the secret Harley-Davidson Area 51.

Thanks for the info but, I'll wait for your reply as to whether you, yourself in-person have seen these boxes and watched a download. Again, I'm not trying to slam or flame you, but as Mr. Spock might say, that is highly il-logical to have to buy, stock, maintain, and re-load software with each new year a set of little handheld data dumpers.

 

http://www.vftis.com/news.aspx?newsi...4-b9cd6f20d313

 

Glide,

Thanks for the link. I went there and printed-off the announcement. But...

Every reference to the level of involvement of the SPX system is related to diagnostic equipment to read the bike - not to program it. It goes on to say that the SPX system, with it's Graphical User Interface will help streamline diagnostics. That is, data output to help them identify situations and formulate repair procedures or actions. No mention of uploading anything.

Besides, if this device is an up-stream/down-stream system, that would imply that there is a way to modify the map without the $459.00 SERT.

Again, back to my main question. Thanks.

 

Hack the ECM.

 

The digital tech as it's called is used to download the stage maps and is basically a laptop. It took the place of the cartridges and the scanalizer. It cannot modify the parameters of the map, just download them for various configurations using HD parts. It's also used in diagnostic proceedures. It can vary some parameters such as idle speed and some others but cannot modify fuel delivery and ignition as an example.

 

I think Glide answered the question for you. The TOOLS (digital tech) that the dealer has to deliver the stage maps does not have the ability to ACCEPT the custom maps delivered with the SERT. I would ASSUME that the FORMAT of the data is different for 2 reasons:

1.) The stage maps and the original ecm programs can only be administered via the digital tech keeping what is in those maps proprietary.
2.) It allows the motor company to sell a SERT and keep their trade secrets in regards to what is delivered on your bike bone stock. If you do a search here you will find that nobody can equate what was originally shipped on their bike to a canned SERT map.

Your SERT has the ability to program a map to the ECM any way you want as long as the map being delivered is in sync with the type of bike etc. This is programmed into the SERT software and is checked in the initial upload to the ECM. If you doubt this, then decompile the exe and you will see the models of the bikes listed as text and can gather how it works.

So whether you like it or not the dealership does not have the ability to take a canned map that came with the SERT and upload it using the digital tech. If it is possible it is not as easy as copying a file from your SERT disk onto the digital tech unit and uploading it into the bike.

Now does it require a dongle to get this accomplished if you wanted to hack it? Probably not, but the dongle provides a layer of security between the software program and the hardware. Since you cannot see the format of the data being sent to ecm because of encryption you cannot see the required format of data that is sent. The SERT program also has a layer of security/encryption that will not allow you to seeany base code either.

I am not sure of the answer you want, but there is not a dealer consipiracy to screw you. The dealer simply is not armed with any knowledge on how to circumvent the system and it would probably not be in their best interest to do so. If you are trying to hack the system, then you are looking in the wrong place to find the information.

And yes, I have seen a digital tech and no it does not have to be preprogrammed with every combination. It just needs to be able to get the format from HD into it so that it can then put it into a bike. For instance the 07 torque upload that came out late 2006's as an example - or a reflash of a new ECM (they are empty until programmed) that has current updates - my wife had a 2003 but the reflash had a more current update of the original programming.

 

Glide,

What your response is saying, is that there is a device that talks to the ECM (albeit very limited in variable parameters) without the 'need' for a dongle.The dealer's limitation on ECM tuning is software restricted, not hardware. If that is the case, then this whole SERT thing is a load of marketing BS intended only to boost revenue. (Golly Aunt Bee, that shore is hard to believe!)

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If the Motor Company reads these Forums, read all of the posts about H-D drivers dumping big bucks into non-Motor Company pockets to achieve better performance - listen-up. Take the software imposed programming limitations off of your systems, charge a fair price for dyno and tech time and watch your revenue increase. To say nothing about happy owners and improved relations. Nine out of ten owners would prefer to not have to get 'inside' of their scooters or take them to 'Billy-Bobs Jewelry Pawn and Motorcycle Emporium' for a good dyno - just enjoy the ride.

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Now, that being said, I still need to find a GOOD tuner here in eastern Tennessee because I already dropped the bucks for a SERT, loaded a base map, but still think there's more HP hiding in the motor. I sure as heck don't want to buy my own dyno.

Thanks for the info.