TTS Master Tune ?
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Tourer
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 442
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So does this TTS system Re calibrate as you ride , or do you have to get off the bike plug a pc in and run a program and redo the map or twick it ? Sounds like all TTS does is twick the system to that condition. So what if you move, or travel a lot ?
Cruiser
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 185
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From: Oklahoma City
FLHXXHLF It's 3 programs. It does not re-calibrate on the fly. You need a laptop to hook up to the bikes ECM. There is a plug under the left side cover that the cable plugs into to 'talk' to the ECM. The map in the ECM gets pulled out and saved then a base map is loaded into the ECM using the MasterTune program. Then you run the DataMaster program to record data from the ECM during a 30 minutes ride. This data gets combined with the base map in the V-Tune program and produces a new map. The new map gets loaded into the ECM with MasterTune and you start over and repeat twice more. There is a file around here that Doc put together that goes through the process step by step, it makes it simple and pretty dtraight forward. Hope I didn't make it sound too complicated. Its really quite easy.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,543
Likes: 19
From: Ashland Ohio
What's "twick"?
The new 'map' entered from your using TTS is loaded into the ECM and replaces the map that was loaded in ECM by Harley Davidson. Think like this::::: our ECMs are programmed with WORD. And the MAP is the word document itself. When we change a 'map' we really just make changes to the .doc document, OK? There is the program and then the programming. New maps are different programming, OK?
With the same 'program' the ECM adjusts for different temps, altitudes and even slight variations of gas. Just like you car does, OK? ALL of us that use 'add-ons' and TTS tuners KEEP the factory ECM with its sophisticated Delphi controller. TTS just writes a new 'word' document to change base values used to control timing and AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) and things like that, OK?
The HD map, is set up for stock pipes, mufflers, air cleaners, etc and produces a specified way the engine should run by adjusting the timing and the amount of fuel pulsed thru the injectors, generally these values are lean to ensure a complete burn, and EPA compliance. Lean is NOT the devil like some believe. But HD may be just a tad TOO lean. OK so far?
A "NEW" map, uses new values generated by say TTS's datamaster program, or by a professional tuner using a dynamometer to gather the new values. The TTS datamaster uses the bikes own O2 sensors to tell what bike is doing in regards to air fuel mixture and records these values. A NEW map is generated for you to download into your bike.
In either event, the new values HAVE to be captured, changed into the proper language, and programmed into the ECM.
Canned maps are generic maps developed by someone using a similar bike with similar upgraded pieces. THIS can also be programmed into your ECM. Canned maps, though... are not from YOUR bike with YOUR pieces. So, canned is close, but a TTS tune (using either method described) is fitted to your particular bike.
Then............. there are 'add-on' controllers. These do NOT change any of the map inside your ECM. Instead, these trick (twick?) your ECM by inputting data that is not true. Works rather well. Easy explain... if it's 50f outside and the add-on can change that value, then the ECM can "think" it is 75f instead of the actual 50f. It can change how rich or lean the bike 'thinks' it is, etc. Some are highly sofisticated like PC-V and some simple like FuelPak.
Here is what's TRULY important. If you decide that you do NOT like how your bike runs, you will end up changing some pieces on it. For more power, it has been determined that one would 1) change mufflers/pipes; 2) changed actual aircleaner intake; 3) change cams.
Your engine is an air pump... pure and simple. The more air one can flow through that pump at any given moment, that extra air is actually extra power. OK? Changing the air cleaner and mufflers is considered a Stage 1 upgrade. You can do EITHER mufflers or air cleaner and 'get by' because the stock size other piece still has engine 'air-choked', but not both without increasing your air pumping efficiency. Why is THAT important?
If you increase the total air flow efficiency, you change how much fuel needs to be used by the engine. The amount of air and the amount of fuel MUST match.
Soooooooooooooo.... most of us that answered this thread, like using the TTS by MasterTune to be our way to change that amount of fuel that enters the engine. We have discovered that TTS is a GREAT product that allows us the fexibility to have CONTROL of our ECM. Add ons(twicks?) do not allow this amount of control. With TTS, we get to SEE when an injector pulses or when an engine pulls timing because the knock sensor told it to do so. We can then TWEAK our maps to correct these flaws, much like a good TUNER can do... well close to what a tuner can do...
It all comes down to how much do you wish to 'fool' with your bike? How comfortable are you mechanically and computer wise? The add-ons are truly great for run of the mill Stage 1 and are plug and play. But, the canned maps can only be as good as the people doing the canning, right? So, maybe your bike runs 'OK" and gets bad gas mileage because the 'canners' simply richened up the mixture. With TTS, as one becomes comfortable... a mixture can be inputted that is CORRECT for a particular engine load, speed, and need... BETTER FUEL MILEAGE than canned.
If EVER you think a cam or increase in size (size matters) is in your future. TTS is THE programmer to buy.
Lastly, TTS is made by same folks that made the Harley Davidson tuner you see in your harley shop. Last year, HD decided to go with a new vendor for the harley tuner. TTS took what they made for Harley and UPGRADED it and added features not found when you bought this tuner from your Harley dealer.
I have had both PC-III and the TTS. Both have AFR tables one can adjust to make engine run leaner or richer. With the TTS, these adjustments are NOT dum azz guesses on my part. I can run DataMaster and KNOW here I need to make a change, OK?
The new 'map' entered from your using TTS is loaded into the ECM and replaces the map that was loaded in ECM by Harley Davidson. Think like this::::: our ECMs are programmed with WORD. And the MAP is the word document itself. When we change a 'map' we really just make changes to the .doc document, OK? There is the program and then the programming. New maps are different programming, OK?
With the same 'program' the ECM adjusts for different temps, altitudes and even slight variations of gas. Just like you car does, OK? ALL of us that use 'add-ons' and TTS tuners KEEP the factory ECM with its sophisticated Delphi controller. TTS just writes a new 'word' document to change base values used to control timing and AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) and things like that, OK?
The HD map, is set up for stock pipes, mufflers, air cleaners, etc and produces a specified way the engine should run by adjusting the timing and the amount of fuel pulsed thru the injectors, generally these values are lean to ensure a complete burn, and EPA compliance. Lean is NOT the devil like some believe. But HD may be just a tad TOO lean. OK so far?
A "NEW" map, uses new values generated by say TTS's datamaster program, or by a professional tuner using a dynamometer to gather the new values. The TTS datamaster uses the bikes own O2 sensors to tell what bike is doing in regards to air fuel mixture and records these values. A NEW map is generated for you to download into your bike.
In either event, the new values HAVE to be captured, changed into the proper language, and programmed into the ECM.
Canned maps are generic maps developed by someone using a similar bike with similar upgraded pieces. THIS can also be programmed into your ECM. Canned maps, though... are not from YOUR bike with YOUR pieces. So, canned is close, but a TTS tune (using either method described) is fitted to your particular bike.
Then............. there are 'add-on' controllers. These do NOT change any of the map inside your ECM. Instead, these trick (twick?) your ECM by inputting data that is not true. Works rather well. Easy explain... if it's 50f outside and the add-on can change that value, then the ECM can "think" it is 75f instead of the actual 50f. It can change how rich or lean the bike 'thinks' it is, etc. Some are highly sofisticated like PC-V and some simple like FuelPak.
Here is what's TRULY important. If you decide that you do NOT like how your bike runs, you will end up changing some pieces on it. For more power, it has been determined that one would 1) change mufflers/pipes; 2) changed actual aircleaner intake; 3) change cams.
Your engine is an air pump... pure and simple. The more air one can flow through that pump at any given moment, that extra air is actually extra power. OK? Changing the air cleaner and mufflers is considered a Stage 1 upgrade. You can do EITHER mufflers or air cleaner and 'get by' because the stock size other piece still has engine 'air-choked', but not both without increasing your air pumping efficiency. Why is THAT important?
If you increase the total air flow efficiency, you change how much fuel needs to be used by the engine. The amount of air and the amount of fuel MUST match.
Soooooooooooooo.... most of us that answered this thread, like using the TTS by MasterTune to be our way to change that amount of fuel that enters the engine. We have discovered that TTS is a GREAT product that allows us the fexibility to have CONTROL of our ECM. Add ons(twicks?) do not allow this amount of control. With TTS, we get to SEE when an injector pulses or when an engine pulls timing because the knock sensor told it to do so. We can then TWEAK our maps to correct these flaws, much like a good TUNER can do... well close to what a tuner can do...
It all comes down to how much do you wish to 'fool' with your bike? How comfortable are you mechanically and computer wise? The add-ons are truly great for run of the mill Stage 1 and are plug and play. But, the canned maps can only be as good as the people doing the canning, right? So, maybe your bike runs 'OK" and gets bad gas mileage because the 'canners' simply richened up the mixture. With TTS, as one becomes comfortable... a mixture can be inputted that is CORRECT for a particular engine load, speed, and need... BETTER FUEL MILEAGE than canned.
If EVER you think a cam or increase in size (size matters) is in your future. TTS is THE programmer to buy.
Lastly, TTS is made by same folks that made the Harley Davidson tuner you see in your harley shop. Last year, HD decided to go with a new vendor for the harley tuner. TTS took what they made for Harley and UPGRADED it and added features not found when you bought this tuner from your Harley dealer.
I have had both PC-III and the TTS. Both have AFR tables one can adjust to make engine run leaner or richer. With the TTS, these adjustments are NOT dum azz guesses on my part. I can run DataMaster and KNOW here I need to make a change, OK?
Last edited by wurk_truk; Apr 9, 2009 at 01:04 PM. Reason: idiot
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,543
Likes: 19
From: Ashland Ohio
You are welcome. I sure hope that helped you dude. That WAS my intention. I surely remember being where you are on the big question... "what do I need?" I try to be a helpful person here, because SO many here help me.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,543
Likes: 19
From: Ashland Ohio
Actually to finish so you know. AFR is air to fuel ratio. So in our 'air pump' the pistons suck in the air from the air cleaner and the injectors pulse gasoline into that airflow being sucked in. Air cleaners allow more to be sucked in. Exhaust allow more air to be blown out. Combine them and the engine can 'move' more air, and hence, be more powerful.
On an engine like ours, the computer has programmed into it the amount of air the engine can suck. Then... using all the sensors it tells the injectors how much gas to squirt. It does the squirting by telling the injectors how long to stay on, or squirting (injector pulse).
There ARE systems that can tell how big 'the pump' is and adjust all things accordingly. But, on our HDs, the amount of air that CAN be sucked is part of a programmed set of parameters.
Once we change the ACTUAL sucking parameters, the bike will NOT operate at best efficiency due to the parameter in the ECM is now WRONG. OK? With our air cleaners and exhaust we allow the bike to use MORE air.
Lean.......... AFR is Air Fuel Ratio. For every amount of air sucked in, a corresponding amount of fuel must be pulsed. This is really precise anymore, too. When we increase the amount of air being sucked in, our STOCK parameters don't know that there is an increase and only pulse the injectors for the same old same old. So, you can see that there is no longer the correct amount of fuel. Not enough fuel is LEAN. Too much fuel is RICH. Subtracting fuel is leaning it out. Adding fuel is richen it up( or fatten it it!)
By adding air, we MUST richen up the mixture to correspond with our ability to move more air through the pump, OK? Because when we DO use more air, we lean er out and THAT lean is NO GOOD. With not enough fuel, we can, not maybe do, but can make things very very hot in the combustion chamber. The heat could start making the oil break down, or make parts wear faster, or... burn your passengers thighs from the added heat. See?
All we all want to do is make the bike run like it SHOULD again.
That's why we have tuners and tuning devices. These devices can change things so our bikes run correctly with our NEW parts and our NEW engine needs for air and fuel.
On a tune itself... I have read things all over the map. NEEDS more rich. NEEDS more lean. LEAN is BAD. RICH is BAD. etc.
We need our everyday bikes to RUN correctly, not all the rest of the crap. We NEED our bikes to operate at all the varying ways we ride.
So, just making the bike RICHer throughout its whole operating range isn't the answer at all. Why be OVER rich when we are on the expressway with cruise set and engine is operating at 10% of it's capacity? We don't we WANT rich then, or our gas mileage goes into the toilet. See? We WANT lean. Nascar, etc. teams that WIN are the teams that can run their engines the leanest... hence more miles per tankful.
So, just a richen isn't the answer for ME, OK?
THREE choices basically. There are 3 basic choices to fixing our air pump ratios. Re-program the existing ECM with new parameters. Buy a NEW ECM and it does the new parameters. Or buy an add-on for the existing ECM.
As long as you keep your bike at its proper and most efficient and powerful ratios... THAT'S whats important.
I chose TTS for the following TRUE (for me)reason. I had a PC-III. And I ran a Fuelmoto canned map. Last bike ran great! I bet the PC-V is even better.
But.............. what happens if I install a combo that is NOT an exact match for the available 'canned' maps? I either have to accept the map how it is or I HAVE to get a Dyno tune. $$$
With TTS, I can install different assortment of mechanical items. Even pistons, cams, increase size, etc. I can install my 'canned' map and THEN do tuning runs to dial in the exact needs of my engine, and then install THAT map. Really, I'm dumb about what cam needs what AFR and how different heads make the same exhaust different, etc. Is a SE A/C different than a S&S? So, I personally NEED the ability to generate maps for the equipment installed. God knows that I do NOT wish to have this dynoed evertime I make a change!!! I have a STREET bike and am willing to have my bike run at 90-95% efficiency. And if I, in fact, master Mastertune, then I do NOT need to master all the little ins and outs of each cam, exhaust, A/C , etc. I can just go by the info here on the forum and buy a cam or what ever my builder tells me for cylinder, heads, and pistons... and I KNOW it can be properly tuned.
A TTS was my FIRST performance purchase for the SG.
On an engine like ours, the computer has programmed into it the amount of air the engine can suck. Then... using all the sensors it tells the injectors how much gas to squirt. It does the squirting by telling the injectors how long to stay on, or squirting (injector pulse).
There ARE systems that can tell how big 'the pump' is and adjust all things accordingly. But, on our HDs, the amount of air that CAN be sucked is part of a programmed set of parameters.
Once we change the ACTUAL sucking parameters, the bike will NOT operate at best efficiency due to the parameter in the ECM is now WRONG. OK? With our air cleaners and exhaust we allow the bike to use MORE air.
Lean.......... AFR is Air Fuel Ratio. For every amount of air sucked in, a corresponding amount of fuel must be pulsed. This is really precise anymore, too. When we increase the amount of air being sucked in, our STOCK parameters don't know that there is an increase and only pulse the injectors for the same old same old. So, you can see that there is no longer the correct amount of fuel. Not enough fuel is LEAN. Too much fuel is RICH. Subtracting fuel is leaning it out. Adding fuel is richen it up( or fatten it it!)
By adding air, we MUST richen up the mixture to correspond with our ability to move more air through the pump, OK? Because when we DO use more air, we lean er out and THAT lean is NO GOOD. With not enough fuel, we can, not maybe do, but can make things very very hot in the combustion chamber. The heat could start making the oil break down, or make parts wear faster, or... burn your passengers thighs from the added heat. See?
All we all want to do is make the bike run like it SHOULD again.
That's why we have tuners and tuning devices. These devices can change things so our bikes run correctly with our NEW parts and our NEW engine needs for air and fuel.
On a tune itself... I have read things all over the map. NEEDS more rich. NEEDS more lean. LEAN is BAD. RICH is BAD. etc.
We need our everyday bikes to RUN correctly, not all the rest of the crap. We NEED our bikes to operate at all the varying ways we ride.
So, just making the bike RICHer throughout its whole operating range isn't the answer at all. Why be OVER rich when we are on the expressway with cruise set and engine is operating at 10% of it's capacity? We don't we WANT rich then, or our gas mileage goes into the toilet. See? We WANT lean. Nascar, etc. teams that WIN are the teams that can run their engines the leanest... hence more miles per tankful.
So, just a richen isn't the answer for ME, OK?
THREE choices basically. There are 3 basic choices to fixing our air pump ratios. Re-program the existing ECM with new parameters. Buy a NEW ECM and it does the new parameters. Or buy an add-on for the existing ECM.
As long as you keep your bike at its proper and most efficient and powerful ratios... THAT'S whats important.
I chose TTS for the following TRUE (for me)reason. I had a PC-III. And I ran a Fuelmoto canned map. Last bike ran great! I bet the PC-V is even better.
But.............. what happens if I install a combo that is NOT an exact match for the available 'canned' maps? I either have to accept the map how it is or I HAVE to get a Dyno tune. $$$
With TTS, I can install different assortment of mechanical items. Even pistons, cams, increase size, etc. I can install my 'canned' map and THEN do tuning runs to dial in the exact needs of my engine, and then install THAT map. Really, I'm dumb about what cam needs what AFR and how different heads make the same exhaust different, etc. Is a SE A/C different than a S&S? So, I personally NEED the ability to generate maps for the equipment installed. God knows that I do NOT wish to have this dynoed evertime I make a change!!! I have a STREET bike and am willing to have my bike run at 90-95% efficiency. And if I, in fact, master Mastertune, then I do NOT need to master all the little ins and outs of each cam, exhaust, A/C , etc. I can just go by the info here on the forum and buy a cam or what ever my builder tells me for cylinder, heads, and pistons... and I KNOW it can be properly tuned.
A TTS was my FIRST performance purchase for the SG.
Last edited by wurk_truk; Apr 10, 2009 at 06:23 PM. Reason: idiot and dumb
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--Gary
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,615
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
A big point of all this is that you are dealing with Software to do the job. Whereas the PCIII,V, and all other fact similies are hardware devices. Why add another piece of hardware to your bike, which could be another point of failure when all you need is a laptop, cables, and software to tune.