Power Vision Information Thread
Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,549
Likes: 18
From: Upstate SC
For any of you doing your tuning with the AT-100 Pro, I'd like some feedback. Ive been doing some datalogs, probably 10 in all over the past week, but all until today have been fairly short. Today I did a 45-mile ride and created four CSV files, so here are some observations:
1. I have always gotten an occasional lean spike of 1.1-1.2 Lambda at cruise, and today saw some values between 1.5-2.5, but you cant tell it when riding. You'd think running that lean would cause a misfire or detonation, even if between 1.1-1.2 and only lasting a short time. These spikes can occur on front or rear cylinder, and occasionally both together. I've also seen 32.767 on the CSV for a short burst only on decel, but only once. It shows 32.77 consistently on the PV Lambda gauges (front and rear) any time I decel at 0% TP above 3k RPM.
Later edit (07/04): I just looked at an old CSV from another participant of this thread, and he also shows lean spikes and even the odd 32.767 in places. Maybe the former are normal and the latter just some sort of reporting glitch that isn't representative of reality.
1. I have always gotten an occasional lean spike of 1.1-1.2 Lambda at cruise, and today saw some values between 1.5-2.5, but you cant tell it when riding. You'd think running that lean would cause a misfire or detonation, even if between 1.1-1.2 and only lasting a short time. These spikes can occur on front or rear cylinder, and occasionally both together. I've also seen 32.767 on the CSV for a short burst only on decel, but only once. It shows 32.77 consistently on the PV Lambda gauges (front and rear) any time I decel at 0% TP above 3k RPM.
Later edit (07/04): I just looked at an old CSV from another participant of this thread, and he also shows lean spikes and even the odd 32.767 in places. Maybe the former are normal and the latter just some sort of reporting glitch that isn't representative of reality.
2. The bike is running very well from a seat-of-the-pants perspective, with only a pop or two every so often when I get off the throttle. The Decel Enleanment is unchanged from stock, so I may need to add some fuel (decrease the value). OTOH it would seem in viewing the CSV files that theres quite a bit of inconsistency, with Lambda readings richer at one point and leaner in another under the same conditions.
3. What concerns me most is that today I completed three WOT runs from 2500-6000 RPM, each followed by another run to 5000 RPM in the next gear, but PV Tune doesnt show hardly any WB2 hits above about 80% TP. In fact, I'm seeing only a few at 100% TP at 3000 RPM, and this is the only time I've seen any hits at 80-100%. OTOH the CSV clearly shows these WOT runs, so it would seem that PV Tune isn't seeing these. I had Min. Hit Count set for 80 (default) initially, then changed it to 40 today, and there still arent many hits, certainly not enough to tune the bike at WOT. The CSV shows its consistently running a bit rich at high WOT on the front cylinder, a bit lean on the rear.
My changes seemed to level out around <2% change and I believe it was good enough. Being sure to hit all areas is important.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,549
Likes: 18
From: Upstate SC
Is the POP happening at a certain temperature? For instance, when the bike is already warmed up? You can reduce the amount of cranking fuel at the temp you are seeing the pop. Have you set the VE values yet? Getting the VEs close seem to take care of a lot of other little issues.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
Looking for some insight. I have a 2010 SE Ultra with a number of engine upgrades, Woods 408 cams, Hillside heads, roller rockers, 58mm TB, 5.3 injectors, D&D FatCat. I have 18K in mileage and the bike runs great. No burps, stumbles, backfires. Great off the line and runs strong to 6000. Flat torque curve with greater than 110ftlbs from 2800 to 5800rpms Getting 39-42 mpgs.
The bike was tuned using the DynoJet PV by JDS Cycles in Roselle Park NJ. Dynoed at 115hp/119tq.
I run with the PV hooked up on my handlebars and was looking to "play" somewhat with the Basic AT feature using the stock O2 sensors (12mm). I've used the SEPST and it's auto-tuning capabilities before I moved to the PV, so I'm very familiar with the tuning tables and what they can do (or not do).
I'd like to use the Pro AT but I really don't want to go through the trouble of swapping out the smaller bungs for the larger 18mms that I would need to use the Pro AT. I figure the day after I make the bung swap out, someone is sure to launch a replacement WB O2 sensor for a 12mm bung that's reasonably priced.
That's the background. Using the stock NB O2 sensors with my dyno-tuned map and the PV's Basic AT feature, I get no recommended VE changes. I'm assuming that's because my dyno-tuned map doesn't run anywhere near stoich for most of the map. Is it correct to assume that if I am not running VERY close to 14.6 AFR (1.00Lambda), that I really can't use the Basic AT?
I realize I should just be happy with my current performance but I like learning new devices and am looking for insight on options to better maximize my use of the auto-tuning capabilities of the PV. I've taken many data logs at varying loads and speeds. I checked the Basic AT's recommended timing which was slightly lower than the dyno-tuned map. I tried the new PV-recommended spark advance map with the recommended lower timing but DEFINITELY felt lower performance from the saddle. So I went back to the original dyno-tuned map.
I've attached 5 charts for anyone to comment on that has some thoughts on using the PV's Basic auto-tuning capabilities with the stock NB O2 sensors with a fuel map similar to mine. Thanks for any insight you might want to share.
Dyno-tuned AFR table
Dyno Tuned Fr Cyl VE Table
Dyno tuned Rear Cyl VE Table
PV Log Tuner Recommended Front VE changes after multiple Data Logging with at least 20 minutes of data.
PV Log Tuner Recommended Rear VE changes after multiple Data Logging with at least 20 minutes of data.
The bike was tuned using the DynoJet PV by JDS Cycles in Roselle Park NJ. Dynoed at 115hp/119tq.
I run with the PV hooked up on my handlebars and was looking to "play" somewhat with the Basic AT feature using the stock O2 sensors (12mm). I've used the SEPST and it's auto-tuning capabilities before I moved to the PV, so I'm very familiar with the tuning tables and what they can do (or not do).
I'd like to use the Pro AT but I really don't want to go through the trouble of swapping out the smaller bungs for the larger 18mms that I would need to use the Pro AT. I figure the day after I make the bung swap out, someone is sure to launch a replacement WB O2 sensor for a 12mm bung that's reasonably priced.
That's the background. Using the stock NB O2 sensors with my dyno-tuned map and the PV's Basic AT feature, I get no recommended VE changes. I'm assuming that's because my dyno-tuned map doesn't run anywhere near stoich for most of the map. Is it correct to assume that if I am not running VERY close to 14.6 AFR (1.00Lambda), that I really can't use the Basic AT?
I realize I should just be happy with my current performance but I like learning new devices and am looking for insight on options to better maximize my use of the auto-tuning capabilities of the PV. I've taken many data logs at varying loads and speeds. I checked the Basic AT's recommended timing which was slightly lower than the dyno-tuned map. I tried the new PV-recommended spark advance map with the recommended lower timing but DEFINITELY felt lower performance from the saddle. So I went back to the original dyno-tuned map.
I've attached 5 charts for anyone to comment on that has some thoughts on using the PV's Basic auto-tuning capabilities with the stock NB O2 sensors with a fuel map similar to mine. Thanks for any insight you might want to share.
Dyno-tuned AFR table
Dyno Tuned Fr Cyl VE Table
Dyno tuned Rear Cyl VE Table
PV Log Tuner Recommended Front VE changes after multiple Data Logging with at least 20 minutes of data.
PV Log Tuner Recommended Rear VE changes after multiple Data Logging with at least 20 minutes of data.
Last edited by Heatwave; Jul 4, 2011 at 09:52 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,549
Likes: 18
From: Upstate SC
I would adjust it to match the stock calibration and see if it helps. You can always put it back.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,549
Likes: 18
From: Upstate SC
To enable closed loop Lambda values must be between .977 and 1.02 or AFR must be 14.6.
Note: If you set your AFR table to 14.6/1, I would also back off about 4 degrees on the timing for the tuning run. 14.6 will run hotter than the 13.65 your bike is set to in the tuning range now.
However, if your bike was tuned on a Dyno using the PV, your VE values should be very close. A good Dyno tuner should be able to give you a better map than you can do yourself but I understand wanting to use the tool you have,
Last edited by JustDennis; Jul 5, 2011 at 12:01 PM. Reason: added note about timing
Intermediate
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 47
Likes: 1
From: illinois
2011 closed loop
On my 2011 ultra if I don't turn off closed loop while logging I get values on the .990 to 1.2 lambda using Pro mode in the cruise cells no matter how rich I have the a/f ration set in those cells. I refer to 2000 - 2750 rpm's and 40 - 60 Kpa. Seems the ecm has a mind of its own if closed loop is set to on. The 2011's are different from the earlier years since it is all rpm vs. kpa. Throttle position is not in the equation is seems.
Waiting on my new AT as the old style 2 unit version keeps locking up and acting weird.
Waiting on my new AT as the old style 2 unit version keeps locking up and acting weird.
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Thread Starter
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Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,615
Likes: 50
From: Baton Rouge, LA
I believe this is normal behavior. Our bikes don't stay at a steady state even though we tend to think they do. The Lambda values move up and down as factors change and the bike adjusts. The reason the tuner uses a certain number of "hits" is so that it doesn't set the values based on some outlying value. Fluctuation is normal, sounds like you are getting close. The final evaluation is how it is running, not what a certain value is. These CSV files record a certain point in time milliseconds apart.
I normally set the default threshold to 30. It is very difficult to get more that 30 hits at any once cell in the upper throttle ranges. It takes about 10 seconds to get that many and it is hard to stay at a certain rpm at WOT.
My changes seemed to level out around <2% change and I believe it was good enough. Being sure to hit all areas is important.
I'm now being told that DE, AE, PE, Closed Loop, and Adaptive Learning need to be disabled prior to any tuning, which is the first I've heard of this. I've had CL disabled, of course, but not the others. We need some detailed documentation for this process, and I believe that's coming soon.
Another tidbit that isn't documented anywhere is the notion obtained from DJ that we should be using one AFR value for the entire table when tuning, like 13.0. I'm not sure why this is, and Jamie told me to stay where I am. I think the idea is to do the tuning at 13.0 and when finished plug in your desired AFR or Lambda values, but I don't see why you shouldn't plug in what you want from the outset.
Last edited by iclick; Jul 5, 2011 at 11:21 AM.
Thread Starter
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Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,615
Likes: 50
From: Baton Rouge, LA
That should take care of it, as it did for me and Dennis.