Electrical Gremlin driving me nuts!
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6th Gear
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Electrical Gremlin driving me nuts!
[:@]
Have a '94 Softail Nostalgia with 35,000 miles, and have been having a problem (for some time) with the starter solenoid just 'clicking' when you hit the Start button. Hit it several times, and it would start, no problem. Used to be, it would only do it when the bike hadn't run for a week or two, but once it started, it would start first try for the rest of the day. Then it progressed to doing it more often, warm or cold. I replaced the battery ( a couple times), and a tech I respect rebuilt the solenoid. Still not fixed. Then a couple weeks ago, my son had the bike out on a real hot day, and it wouldn't catch at all - just click the solenoid. I now have replaced the entire starter/solenoid, replaced the primary (positive)battery to starter cable, starter relay, and bypassed the starter button. Still no fix!! I don't know any other parts to replace - except the entire wiring harness!!
Anybody able to suggest anything I haven't tried???
Thanks for any help!
pete
(and I just read 'Pilot's' tech tip on this problem in the electrical forum - new to this wire, and just finding my way around! - so I'll do some more testing as he outlined - but any other thoughts still appreciated.)
Have a '94 Softail Nostalgia with 35,000 miles, and have been having a problem (for some time) with the starter solenoid just 'clicking' when you hit the Start button. Hit it several times, and it would start, no problem. Used to be, it would only do it when the bike hadn't run for a week or two, but once it started, it would start first try for the rest of the day. Then it progressed to doing it more often, warm or cold. I replaced the battery ( a couple times), and a tech I respect rebuilt the solenoid. Still not fixed. Then a couple weeks ago, my son had the bike out on a real hot day, and it wouldn't catch at all - just click the solenoid. I now have replaced the entire starter/solenoid, replaced the primary (positive)battery to starter cable, starter relay, and bypassed the starter button. Still no fix!! I don't know any other parts to replace - except the entire wiring harness!!
Anybody able to suggest anything I haven't tried???
Thanks for any help!
pete
(and I just read 'Pilot's' tech tip on this problem in the electrical forum - new to this wire, and just finding my way around! - so I'll do some more testing as he outlined - but any other thoughts still appreciated.)
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RE: Electrical Gremlin driving me nuts!
Pete,
I'm like you in that I hate electrical gremlins. I am lucky enough to have a friend that owns a car stereo shop and I get to help him out quite a bit and as a result have learned a lot of col stuff helping him out.
What I might suggest is that you have a bad ignition switch or starter button or believe it or not both may have gone out together. I don't like being a parts replacer and would much rather diagnose the problem and nail it the first time but sometimes with electronic components you are sometimes just better off replacing some stuff and be done with it.
Check your battery connections again and make sure the battery is in good working order and didn't go south on you. They can do that.
Also Just for grins check all your connections going to the coil, all your grounds and any and all electrical connections. I know it's a PIA but these things must be done to eliminate any other potential problems. Good luck and keep us posted on how you make out.
SpiderJim.
I'm like you in that I hate electrical gremlins. I am lucky enough to have a friend that owns a car stereo shop and I get to help him out quite a bit and as a result have learned a lot of col stuff helping him out.
What I might suggest is that you have a bad ignition switch or starter button or believe it or not both may have gone out together. I don't like being a parts replacer and would much rather diagnose the problem and nail it the first time but sometimes with electronic components you are sometimes just better off replacing some stuff and be done with it.
Check your battery connections again and make sure the battery is in good working order and didn't go south on you. They can do that.
Also Just for grins check all your connections going to the coil, all your grounds and any and all electrical connections. I know it's a PIA but these things must be done to eliminate any other potential problems. Good luck and keep us posted on how you make out.
SpiderJim.
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RE: Electrical Gremlin driving me nuts!
Pete
You said......replaced the primary (positive)battery to starter cable, starter relay etc
Did you check the neg. cable where it attaches to the engine, I'll bet not. It's just as important as the positive.
Here's a quick tip for you.
If you get it in this no start condition again, grab your jumper cables from your car and using only one of the cables, clip it on to the neg. battery terminal and find a GOOD clean ground on the engine and clip the other end on there and see if it starts. If it does your problem is a bad ground of the neg. cable probably on the inner primary.(main ground for the system)
Other wise you can do the same on the positive side by cliping on to the pos. battery terminal and the other end on to the big lug on the starter motor itself (not the small one on the solenoid), if it starts now with the starter button, you have a bad connection on the pos. cable itself. If still no start, jump a wire momentarilly from this jumper cable to the small solenoid terminal and it should fire up if the key is on. This just totally eliminated the entire system on the bike and should work one of the ways explained here. It will just tell you where the problem lies.
You may have to wiggle the jumper cable clips a bit to get a good connection, but this should tell you which side of the circuit is at fault. From what you said, it sounds like the neg. ground connection on the back of the primary where it picks up the ground for the system.
Let us know what you find.
Also don't forget to check the solenoid wire where it passes under the oil tank, they have been known to rub through the insulation here and cause exactly what you are experiencing here.
You said......replaced the primary (positive)battery to starter cable, starter relay etc
Did you check the neg. cable where it attaches to the engine, I'll bet not. It's just as important as the positive.
Here's a quick tip for you.
If you get it in this no start condition again, grab your jumper cables from your car and using only one of the cables, clip it on to the neg. battery terminal and find a GOOD clean ground on the engine and clip the other end on there and see if it starts. If it does your problem is a bad ground of the neg. cable probably on the inner primary.(main ground for the system)
Other wise you can do the same on the positive side by cliping on to the pos. battery terminal and the other end on to the big lug on the starter motor itself (not the small one on the solenoid), if it starts now with the starter button, you have a bad connection on the pos. cable itself. If still no start, jump a wire momentarilly from this jumper cable to the small solenoid terminal and it should fire up if the key is on. This just totally eliminated the entire system on the bike and should work one of the ways explained here. It will just tell you where the problem lies.
You may have to wiggle the jumper cable clips a bit to get a good connection, but this should tell you which side of the circuit is at fault. From what you said, it sounds like the neg. ground connection on the back of the primary where it picks up the ground for the system.
Let us know what you find.
Also don't forget to check the solenoid wire where it passes under the oil tank, they have been known to rub through the insulation here and cause exactly what you are experiencing here.
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6th Gear
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RE: Electrical Gremlin driving me nuts!
TC...
Just so I'm sure, the neg. battery cable is just a short run, to the frame just in front of the battery. You say the ground then goes to the inner primary? Where I can get at it?
Pete
Just so I'm sure, the neg. battery cable is just a short run, to the frame just in front of the battery. You say the ground then goes to the inner primary? Where I can get at it?
Pete
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RE: Electrical Gremlin driving me nuts!
Depending on the bike, some go to the frame and others to the primary, in your case go from the neg on the battery to the engine itself where you can get a good clean connection
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RE: Electrical Gremlin driving me nuts!
TC...
Tried the jumper cables on the negative post to the frame ~ no go. I had printed a copy of your ohmmeter test procedure for the start button etal, but forgot it here at work. But in the meantime, I tore the ignition switch apart, and found it qute dirty, and the roller contact had significant wear, so I'm head for the HD shop this morning for parts to rebuild that. I checked the wiring to the relay, and the heavy tan wire had a bad place on it, although it was taped and not shorting out. But I installed a connector in th bad spot anyway. After I did that, the starter worked the first 5-6 tries, but then went back to just clicking. That was when I noticed the same tan wire was getting hot at the ignition switch, which prompted the removal of the switch.
By the way, running a jumper from the positive side of the battery to the small solenoid wire (green) does make the problem go away, so it has to be somewhere in the wiring.
Also, that heavy tan wire from the iginition switch goes to a circuit breaker (?) mounted on the plastic rear fender splash shield right near the starter relay. Could that breaker be a problem?
Guess I'm narrowing it down!
Pete
Tried the jumper cables on the negative post to the frame ~ no go. I had printed a copy of your ohmmeter test procedure for the start button etal, but forgot it here at work. But in the meantime, I tore the ignition switch apart, and found it qute dirty, and the roller contact had significant wear, so I'm head for the HD shop this morning for parts to rebuild that. I checked the wiring to the relay, and the heavy tan wire had a bad place on it, although it was taped and not shorting out. But I installed a connector in th bad spot anyway. After I did that, the starter worked the first 5-6 tries, but then went back to just clicking. That was when I noticed the same tan wire was getting hot at the ignition switch, which prompted the removal of the switch.
By the way, running a jumper from the positive side of the battery to the small solenoid wire (green) does make the problem go away, so it has to be somewhere in the wiring.
Also, that heavy tan wire from the iginition switch goes to a circuit breaker (?) mounted on the plastic rear fender splash shield right near the starter relay. Could that breaker be a problem?
Guess I'm narrowing it down!
Pete
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RE: Electrical Gremlin driving me nuts!
>>> running a jumper from the positive side of the battery to the small solenoid wire (green) does make the problem go away, so it has to be somewhere in the wiring.
You nailed that, as for the breaker,There could be a possible defect in it causing your problem. You can TEMPORARILY jump it out of the circuit for a test only by connecting a wire across the two terminals, but don't forget and leave it there by mistake. You can also suspect the starter relay which can also be jumped if you know the terminals , but just as a test proceedure to see if it is the cause of your problem
You Said....That was when I noticed the same tan wire was getting hot at the ignition switch, which prompted the removal of the switch.
Hot , means resistance in the circuit, resistance will cause the problem you have
Here's a diagram of that https://www.hdforums.com/m_66689/tm.htm
If you jump across the terminals 30/51 and 87, it will crank the bike as soon as you wire it up with the key on , try it a few times till you feel your satisfied ,this will tell you if your problem is in the solenoid circuit of the relay, make sure it is in neutral first. This will test just the relay points for the solenoid circuit and not the start button circuit itself. If your problem disappears doing this, replace the relay , if not, you have to get into the start button circuit with more tests, but you are getting close now. Hows the start button contacts?
You can test the start button circuit of the relay by using a +12 volt jumper from the battery to the #86 terminal which should crank the bike each time you connect, if not, replace the relay, if it does crank each time, back track up the wire connected to #86 and find something wrong with it all the way to the start button.
You might want to keep a charger on the battery when doing these tests so it doesn't run down which would give you similar symptoms
Keep us posted
You nailed that, as for the breaker,There could be a possible defect in it causing your problem. You can TEMPORARILY jump it out of the circuit for a test only by connecting a wire across the two terminals, but don't forget and leave it there by mistake. You can also suspect the starter relay which can also be jumped if you know the terminals , but just as a test proceedure to see if it is the cause of your problem
You Said....That was when I noticed the same tan wire was getting hot at the ignition switch, which prompted the removal of the switch.
Hot , means resistance in the circuit, resistance will cause the problem you have
Here's a diagram of that https://www.hdforums.com/m_66689/tm.htm
If you jump across the terminals 30/51 and 87, it will crank the bike as soon as you wire it up with the key on , try it a few times till you feel your satisfied ,this will tell you if your problem is in the solenoid circuit of the relay, make sure it is in neutral first. This will test just the relay points for the solenoid circuit and not the start button circuit itself. If your problem disappears doing this, replace the relay , if not, you have to get into the start button circuit with more tests, but you are getting close now. Hows the start button contacts?
You can test the start button circuit of the relay by using a +12 volt jumper from the battery to the #86 terminal which should crank the bike each time you connect, if not, replace the relay, if it does crank each time, back track up the wire connected to #86 and find something wrong with it all the way to the start button.
You might want to keep a charger on the battery when doing these tests so it doesn't run down which would give you similar symptoms
Keep us posted
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6th Gear
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RE: Electrical Gremlin driving me nuts!
As to the relay itself, I did change that out with another one I had (not new, but tests ok per the HD service manual test procedure ~ connecting to battery to 'activate' it, and checking for continuity... Both that one and the one in the bike test 'good' by that method.)
I'll try the tests you describe to check the start button wiring. ~ You said 'how are the starter button contacts'.... When I took that apart, the unit (Start & Run) looked like a one-piece 'sealed' unit, so I didn't get to the actual contacts. Should that switch come apart so as to check those?
Of course, local HD doesn't have the ignition plate & roller contact, so I'm making some calls to try and locate one within driving distance, if not I'll have to order, which takes it into next week.[>:]
Stay tuned...
Pete
I'll try the tests you describe to check the start button wiring. ~ You said 'how are the starter button contacts'.... When I took that apart, the unit (Start & Run) looked like a one-piece 'sealed' unit, so I didn't get to the actual contacts. Should that switch come apart so as to check those?
Of course, local HD doesn't have the ignition plate & roller contact, so I'm making some calls to try and locate one within driving distance, if not I'll have to order, which takes it into next week.[>:]
Stay tuned...
Pete
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RE: Electrical Gremlin driving me nuts!
With the test method, all you need is a circuit (1 strand of wire and at least some of the contact working), where as in actual service there is more amperage (load) running through it. If you tried the bike with the other relay in it and it was the same problem, you can probably rule that out then.