cam cover
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Intermediate
Joined: Nov 2007
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cam cover
HELP!! I took the cam cover off my 1971 xlch and, you guessed it, some of the cams came out with it. The rear cylinder intake cam is stuck to the case and I'm unable to remove it from the case. It turns freely however, just can't get it off the case. Also, the HD manual says to simply align the marks on the cams when replacing them. Out of all the cams, only two have any marks on them (dots). Am I dealing with after market cams? The manual does not really show a good pic of how to line up the marks anyway. What the hell do I do now?
Tourer
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 388
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From: West Tennessee
RE: cam cover
First things first. Relax, we will help you out. If you start getting anxious about it, then it will make the job that much harder. I have taken my cover off a couple of times and once you sort of figure it out, it's not that hard.
Okay so on to your problem. Did you remove the pushrods before removing the cam cover? If not your gonna want to do that now. Those pushrods if not removed will put an exceptional amount of force down on your CAMs especially if they are pushing the valve open. If you don't know how to do that or you get confused come back and let us know. Also by stuck do you mean that the cam is stuck in the actual crank case or the cam cover. I just wanted to clarify that one.
And the lines should be on the outside of the cams (what would be towards the cam cover). Some of the CAMS will have 1 line others will have 2 and 3 marks. Lining them up is not that hard. Just posistion the piniongear's mark at about a the 10 o'clock position and then line up all the marks. Starting with the first CAM. I'm at work now so I can't really get you a scan of my HD manual. WheN I get home I will scan that page so you can see what I mean and take a picture of mine. At the moment I have my cam cover off.
The hardest part after pulling the cams out will be measuring the free-end play, which is not a huge deal but it takes a while to do and it will end up hurting your back.
Okay so on to your problem. Did you remove the pushrods before removing the cam cover? If not your gonna want to do that now. Those pushrods if not removed will put an exceptional amount of force down on your CAMs especially if they are pushing the valve open. If you don't know how to do that or you get confused come back and let us know. Also by stuck do you mean that the cam is stuck in the actual crank case or the cam cover. I just wanted to clarify that one.
And the lines should be on the outside of the cams (what would be towards the cam cover). Some of the CAMS will have 1 line others will have 2 and 3 marks. Lining them up is not that hard. Just posistion the piniongear's mark at about a the 10 o'clock position and then line up all the marks. Starting with the first CAM. I'm at work now so I can't really get you a scan of my HD manual. WheN I get home I will scan that page so you can see what I mean and take a picture of mine. At the moment I have my cam cover off.
The hardest part after pulling the cams out will be measuring the free-end play, which is not a huge deal but it takes a while to do and it will end up hurting your back.
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Intermediate
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From:
RE: cam cover
thanks for the reply. The cam is stuck in the cover not the engine case. I did not remove the push rods but I am able to do that and will after work. Will I need to check end play if the shims are all in place and have not been removed? Also, will I need to pull the lifters in order to get the cover back on or will I be able to do this with just removing the push rods? I still do not see any alignment marks on most of the cams. The pinion gear and spiral gear for the oil pump have not been removed so I am assuming that I do not have to worry about timing the breather.
Tourer
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
From: West Tennessee
RE: cam cover
LOL. Don't even get me started on the timing for the breather valve!
I just went through a whole idiot moment on another thread of me thinking mine was all screwed up.
So yah your going to want to leave your pinion gear and drive gear for the oil pump in place. You can check your breather valve to make sure it's timed correctly but since you probably haven't had any other major issues it probably already is. The pushrods will have to removed for you to put the CAMS back in place. The lifters don't have to be removed to reinstall the CAMS. All I do with mine is take four wooden cloth hangers and pull the lifters up and put the clothes hanger on them to hold them up and out of the way.
Now with the intake came that is stuck. I think I know what the problem is with it. You likely have points and that is the points drive cam. On the front of the CAM cover remove the points cover and remove the bolt holding the points cam drive in place (right in the very middle and it should be a 9/16" head bolt) and then the CAM should drop out. Be careful to catch it before it falls out. Don't want it getting dinged up and unusable.
With free end play. Yah you will want to re-measure that. In the time since it has last been done the bushings could have worn down some and its likely that you won't get the exact same size cam cover gasket when putting it back together. So that will have to be done. Like I said it's not hard, its just a major pain in the butt.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, I think the 71's have a magneto and not points, but regardless I believe it should still have a gear to drive the magneto on the front of the CAM cover case that should be bolted in and holding the gear in place. Another member may correct me on that as I don't have a magneto on mine.
I just went through a whole idiot moment on another thread of me thinking mine was all screwed up. So yah your going to want to leave your pinion gear and drive gear for the oil pump in place. You can check your breather valve to make sure it's timed correctly but since you probably haven't had any other major issues it probably already is. The pushrods will have to removed for you to put the CAMS back in place. The lifters don't have to be removed to reinstall the CAMS. All I do with mine is take four wooden cloth hangers and pull the lifters up and put the clothes hanger on them to hold them up and out of the way.
Now with the intake came that is stuck. I think I know what the problem is with it. You likely have points and that is the points drive cam. On the front of the CAM cover remove the points cover and remove the bolt holding the points cam drive in place (right in the very middle and it should be a 9/16" head bolt) and then the CAM should drop out. Be careful to catch it before it falls out. Don't want it getting dinged up and unusable.
With free end play. Yah you will want to re-measure that. In the time since it has last been done the bushings could have worn down some and its likely that you won't get the exact same size cam cover gasket when putting it back together. So that will have to be done. Like I said it's not hard, its just a major pain in the butt.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, I think the 71's have a magneto and not points, but regardless I believe it should still have a gear to drive the magneto on the front of the CAM cover case that should be bolted in and holding the gear in place. Another member may correct me on that as I don't have a magneto on mine.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: cam cover
Supr2nr......
First off regarding your breather problem.......That was a good catch noted by frenchfowl and the earlier poster. I did not catch the fact that one more turn would line up the marks.....so good work guys!
Now regarding Redbull's problem:
The 1971 has the points (not magneto) driven off the rear intake cam. The reason the cam is stuck in the timing cover is as you say, the points have never been removed before he pulled off the cover. This is a good example of why one needs a factory manual before you start to do any work on your ironhead fellows.
He needs to remove the points first and remove the cam from the cover.
Next is to remove the pushrods.
Then pull all of the cams out, along with the shims on each cam and the cam plates.
Remove all of the lifter bases next.
Clean everything up so that there is minimum oil on the parts.
Install the cam plates. There are 2 of these. one goes on the rear cylinder cam pair and the other on the front pair.
The plates have a bevelled edge on one side of the holes. The bevel faces out (toward the cams)
install the cams. The marks do not have to line up, but it is best to do so.
Install a new dry (no sealer) timing cover gasket, and snug up the timing cover.
Using feeler gages, check to see how much end play there is at each of the 4 cams. Write down the gap for each cam.
The cam shims are available in 2 thickness, .005 and .007. Shim each cam using an assortment of these shims to obtain the proper end play. The proper end play is .001 minimum and .005 maximum.
I prefer to divide up the shims for each cam by placing some on either side of the cam. Oil up the parts and install them in place. This time you must line up the marks on the face of the cam gears! After the timing cover is in place I would check the end play one last time. It may be a little tighter because of the oil in there, but make sure you can get a .001 or .002 feeler gage between the cam and the plate.
New gaskets go on the lifter bases.
New corks (12) go in the pushrod tubes, and adjust the pushrod clearance correctly.
You need to look at the book to do this. No book? Let us know and we can help you.........pg
First off regarding your breather problem.......That was a good catch noted by frenchfowl and the earlier poster. I did not catch the fact that one more turn would line up the marks.....so good work guys!
Now regarding Redbull's problem:
The 1971 has the points (not magneto) driven off the rear intake cam. The reason the cam is stuck in the timing cover is as you say, the points have never been removed before he pulled off the cover. This is a good example of why one needs a factory manual before you start to do any work on your ironhead fellows.
He needs to remove the points first and remove the cam from the cover.
Next is to remove the pushrods.
Then pull all of the cams out, along with the shims on each cam and the cam plates.
Remove all of the lifter bases next.
Clean everything up so that there is minimum oil on the parts.
Install the cam plates. There are 2 of these. one goes on the rear cylinder cam pair and the other on the front pair.
The plates have a bevelled edge on one side of the holes. The bevel faces out (toward the cams)
install the cams. The marks do not have to line up, but it is best to do so.
Install a new dry (no sealer) timing cover gasket, and snug up the timing cover.
Using feeler gages, check to see how much end play there is at each of the 4 cams. Write down the gap for each cam.
The cam shims are available in 2 thickness, .005 and .007. Shim each cam using an assortment of these shims to obtain the proper end play. The proper end play is .001 minimum and .005 maximum.
I prefer to divide up the shims for each cam by placing some on either side of the cam. Oil up the parts and install them in place. This time you must line up the marks on the face of the cam gears! After the timing cover is in place I would check the end play one last time. It may be a little tighter because of the oil in there, but make sure you can get a .001 or .002 feeler gage between the cam and the plate.
New gaskets go on the lifter bases.
New corks (12) go in the pushrod tubes, and adjust the pushrod clearance correctly.
You need to look at the book to do this. No book? Let us know and we can help you.........pg
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Intermediate
Joined: Nov 2007
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From:
RE: cam cover
Thanks again for responding. I do have a manual but evidently can't read (I'm from Minnesota, what can I say). My bike has electronic ignition not points. There are two posts on either side of the ignition unit. I'm assuming these need to be removed in order to get the cam out of the cover? I did find the marks on the face of the cams. As you did Pinion, the person who last worked on the cams divided the shims up and placed some in front and some in back. These were hiding the marks from me. Now to my next question. As I stated before, the manual's photograph of the alignment of the marks does not show clearly how the marks should line up. How close do these marks need to be? I started this project because I was getting intermitent oil pressure to the front rocker cover from the oil feed line and could not figure out why. Someone said to check the opening in the pinion shaft to make sure it wasn't plugged. That's why I pulled the cover off.
Tourer
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
From: West Tennessee
RE: cam cover
Hey I was right about the points. I thought he would have points or equivalent. If you look in side where the points used to go and now your electronic igntion go you will see two larger posts. Those are used to tighten down the ignition so it doesn't move while your not timing it AND it also holds the points cover on as well. In between those two posts should be on 9/16" bolt that goes directly through the middle and screws into the CAM in the back. With that bolt removed the CAM will fall out.
The timing marks will all HAVE to be perfectly lined up. Again not that big of a deal. You just need to play with it for a bit. I will scan my books page when I get home for you. But this is in black and white what you need to do:
1. Put the bike in fourth gear
2. Lift up the bike on a stand or lift the rear tire up off the ground.
3. Rotate the back tire enough to get the pinion gear's mark at about the 10 o'clock posistion (slightly angled back to the left).
4. Install the first CAM labeled 1P or 1Q with the mark down around in the 4 or 5 o'clock posistion (slightly angled down towards the right).
5. Install the second CAM labeled 2P or 2Q with one mark touching the mark on the first CAM.
6. The bottom mark on the second CAM will line up with the pinion gear's mark.
7. Install the third CAM labeled 3P or 3Q with the mark on the left facing down at about the 7 or 8 o'clock position making sure it lines up with the remaining third mark on the second CAM.
8. Install the fourth CAM labeled 4P or 4Q with the only mark on it facing the remaing mark on the third cam. Should be angeled at about the 9 o'clock posistion.
The timing marks will all HAVE to be perfectly lined up. Again not that big of a deal. You just need to play with it for a bit. I will scan my books page when I get home for you. But this is in black and white what you need to do:
1. Put the bike in fourth gear
2. Lift up the bike on a stand or lift the rear tire up off the ground.
3. Rotate the back tire enough to get the pinion gear's mark at about the 10 o'clock posistion (slightly angled back to the left).
4. Install the first CAM labeled 1P or 1Q with the mark down around in the 4 or 5 o'clock posistion (slightly angled down towards the right).
5. Install the second CAM labeled 2P or 2Q with one mark touching the mark on the first CAM.
6. The bottom mark on the second CAM will line up with the pinion gear's mark.
7. Install the third CAM labeled 3P or 3Q with the mark on the left facing down at about the 7 or 8 o'clock position making sure it lines up with the remaining third mark on the second CAM.
8. Install the fourth CAM labeled 4P or 4Q with the only mark on it facing the remaing mark on the third cam. Should be angeled at about the 9 o'clock posistion.
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Tourer
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
From: West Tennessee
RE: cam cover
ORIGINAL: piniongear
Supr2nr......
First off regarding your breather problem.......That was a good catch noted by frenchfowl and the earlier poster. I did not catch the fact that one more turn would line up the marks.....so good work guys!
Supr2nr......
First off regarding your breather problem.......That was a good catch noted by frenchfowl and the earlier poster. I did not catch the fact that one more turn would line up the marks.....so good work guys!
I'm really happy about the breather problem as well. Although I have to tell you I felt like a moron after thefrenchowl came back and said that. Every now and then I have one of those blonde moments and it shows. Something like that just blows my mind that I didn't catch that before posting. I have been working on cars/trucks for a long time. First time with a Harley but, its not that much different. In any case I appreciate all the helpy ou have given me in the past. You are truly a great member of this forum as well are quite a few other people on this forum. Again I appreciate it.
redbull, when piniongear here says something you can pretty much guaruntee that its correct! Like I said above he is full of extremely helpful information.
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: cam cover
piniongear, if you don't mind. I'm going to start referring to you as Blake from now on. Or Mr. Perry as a sign of complete respect
OK, but just make it Blake..... please. Jeeze, Mr Perry makes me feel older than I am.
Don't feel bad about the breather incident. I also missed it and thank the frenchfowl for catching it. So you have company because the egg is also on my face.
Not the first time for me though.
When it happens to me, I just always try to change the subject quickly. Ha-Ha!
That is what I like about this group. We all seem to correct a mis-statement without getting into a disagreement and in the end the original problem gets solved and we all learn from it.
I know (only too well) that when I make a comment about a Sportster newer than a 1974, I had better be wearing my life jacket and holding on to my rubber duck because I am in some deep water. O-oooh, that egg hurts when it hits me in the face!
I hope your Sporty goes back together nicely and you get some riding in this year without any problems.........pg
OK, but just make it Blake..... please. Jeeze, Mr Perry makes me feel older than I am.
Don't feel bad about the breather incident. I also missed it and thank the frenchfowl for catching it. So you have company because the egg is also on my face.
Not the first time for me though.
When it happens to me, I just always try to change the subject quickly. Ha-Ha!
That is what I like about this group. We all seem to correct a mis-statement without getting into a disagreement and in the end the original problem gets solved and we all learn from it.
I know (only too well) that when I make a comment about a Sportster newer than a 1974, I had better be wearing my life jacket and holding on to my rubber duck because I am in some deep water. O-oooh, that egg hurts when it hits me in the face!
I hope your Sporty goes back together nicely and you get some riding in this year without any problems.........pg
Tourer
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
From: West Tennessee
RE: cam cover
ORIGINAL: piniongear
That is what I like about this group. We all seem to correct a mis-statement without getting into a disagreement and in the end the original problem gets solved and we all learn from it.
That is what I like about this group. We all seem to correct a mis-statement without getting into a disagreement and in the end the original problem gets solved and we all learn from it.
redbull, back to your issue. As promised here are the pictures for yah! I just got done putting mine back together. Now keep in mind that I skipped over re-shimming the CAMS because I just did it two days ago and I didn't need to do it again.
Step 1. The CAMS!
Step 2. How to hold up those danged lifters. This is my trick, at the moment I am trying to get a copyright on it, but since that hasn't panned out yet feel free to use it at will! [sm=lol.gif] LOL
Step 3. Getting the pinion gear in the right posistion. The posistion of yours might be slightly different but should be fairly close.
Step 4. CAM 1 installed
Step 5. CAM 2 installed
Step 6. CAM 3 Installed
Step 7. CAM 4 installed
A quick look at what all of them look installed.
