Replacement for the M8
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2017
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From: Texas
For what it's worth, that Pan America is pretty awesome looking. But it looks like it's going to have a sky-high seat just like the GS's do (about 8" - 10" higher than a Softail). There's more than a few of us who fit on Harleys who don't fit on other makers' bikes, and Harley even acknowledged that by making a specific "Low" model of the Ultra Limited. If that Pan America has a reasonable seat height, I would be extremely interested in it.
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: poway
It may replace the sportster first. They simply need to double the engine size again and stuff it into a touring frame. Motor does look like the new 500s/750s. One piece crank, wetsump (no such thing as sumping), gearbox, primary, motor all share the same oil (no transfer issue), and it's water cooled.
They say that it's part of a line that ranges from 500 to 1250 cc. Based on the pics of the other bikes, it certainly doesn't look like a compact engine, it looks pretty huge...
Seeing as they already have the 500 and 750cc Streets, it seems logical that the motor for these new bikes could be a larger version of the Revolution X, at 975 and 1250cc. The pictures of the Pan America, Streetfighter, and Custom don't show any cooling fins and are very likely water-cooled engines. It's possible that they've develoed a new engine, but why make yet another liquid-cooled Revolution-style motor when they already have the X?
Plus, the Revolution X already puts out over 90 hp/liter, much more than the M8 or Sportster engines can do (they're more like 50 hp/liter). All three of those new bikes look like they're designed to compete in already very well established spaces occupied thoroughly by the Metrics, so they are going to need some actual HP to compete, and the Revolution X delivers.
Seeing as they already have the 500 and 750cc Streets, it seems logical that the motor for these new bikes could be a larger version of the Revolution X, at 975 and 1250cc. The pictures of the Pan America, Streetfighter, and Custom don't show any cooling fins and are very likely water-cooled engines. It's possible that they've develoed a new engine, but why make yet another liquid-cooled Revolution-style motor when they already have the X?
Plus, the Revolution X already puts out over 90 hp/liter, much more than the M8 or Sportster engines can do (they're more like 50 hp/liter). All three of those new bikes look like they're designed to compete in already very well established spaces occupied thoroughly by the Metrics, so they are going to need some actual HP to compete, and the Revolution X delivers.
Another thing about the Street is that it is really not a very good engine. The V-rod actually was a very good engine, so hopefully if the MOCO is taking it cues from anything in developing the mill for these future bikes it is the V-rod.
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Joined: Jul 2009
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So Harley wants to get into the “adventure” motorcycle game. Not sure thats a very big market in the US and I’m doubtful they will convince many buyers of this type of bike in either the Asian or European markets. They are barking up the wrong tree by trying to be like something they are not.
Adventure bike buyers want rugged functionality but most importantly they want UNBREAKABLE RELIABILITY under extraordinary and unforgiving conditions. Harley has struggled for decades with reliability under the most basic road conditions. They will need to EARN the right to being viewed as a motorcycle maker known for reliability.
They better get their basic road bikes sorted out because anyone buying an HD Adventure bike will destroy the market for HD with the first scent of unreliability in the backcountry.
Adventure bike buyers want rugged functionality but most importantly they want UNBREAKABLE RELIABILITY under extraordinary and unforgiving conditions. Harley has struggled for decades with reliability under the most basic road conditions. They will need to EARN the right to being viewed as a motorcycle maker known for reliability.
They better get their basic road bikes sorted out because anyone buying an HD Adventure bike will destroy the market for HD with the first scent of unreliability in the backcountry.
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Joined: Nov 2017
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From: Texas
The Street Rod delivers 64 hp to the rear wheel, according to the Cycle World dyno here. That's observed at the wheel, not claimed at the crank; generally people seem to say about a 15% driveline loss. BMW claims 160 hp for the K1600, but the rear-wheel dynos show it to be more like 135, which is about 15% loss. If that's the case here, then the crankshaft horsepower of the Street Rod should be somewhere around 73, which would be a claimed crankshaft hp/liter of about 97 hp/liter. Peak HP on the dyno was observed at 8490 RPM. It would require about 45 ft/lbs of torque to create 73 horsepower at 8490 RPM.
I'm not aware of the Street engine developing a bad reputation -- what's bad about it? It is supposed to be generally based on the V-Rod design; the V-Rod was the Revolution, and the Street engine is called the Revolution X...
Another thing about the Street is that it is really not a very good engine. The V-rod actually was a very good engine, so hopefully if the MOCO is taking it cues from anything in developing the mill for these future bikes it is the V-rod.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2017
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From: Texas
If they do want to double the size, I'd be interested in a V4 version. Heck, they could even cast the cylinders so that it still looks like a V-twin, but two of those 975cc engines would make a pretty huge 1950cc V-4 that would probably forever silence the critiques coming from the metric side... with 90HP per liter it'd be a near-180HP barnstormer. Harley experimented with that concept once before, with Project Nova, making a modular engine that could be a V-twin, or a V-4, or even a V-6. Check out the pics, they even made mega-fat cylinders so it looks like a V-twin, it's just the 4 exhaust pipes that give it away. But straying from the V-Twin formula might be hazardous to retaining their faithful clientele, so ... I guess we'll see in the coming years what their plans are.
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Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2017
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From: Texas
I was on a trip in coastal Oregon and Washington last month. Generally I see at least 20, probably 40 Harleys on the road for every BMW I see in Texas. But up there, it was maybe 2:1, at times 1:1. Every other bike was a big ol' BMW GS. Never seen so many BMW's in my life. Perhaps they were all rentals, as EagleRider has a good stock of 'em up there, but there were an absurdly disproportionate number of adventure bikes vs. Harley cruisers as compared to what I've observed in the south.
Adventure bike buyers want rugged functionality but most importantly they want UNBREAKABLE RELIABILITY under extraordinary and unforgiving conditions.
