The run-around...
Banned
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,036
Likes: 67
Well, isn't that a given? Actually there are several design issues with that engine/transmission combo. After manufacturing for 3 model years and the same issues keep cropping up...there is a basic design issue somewhere. I am not smart enough to know where the flaws are in design. If the same design engineers who designed and manufactured the M8 can not figure out what is wrong after 3 years then they are incompetent. But maybe they have zeroed in on what is wrong and the bean counter management types will not let them do the right thing by having a recall. That is the most likely scenario in my mind.
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 858
Likes: 140
From: USA
So... They never made any changes to your beloved Twin Cam? It stayed exactly the same during it's entire production life?
Changes happen. Running changes happen. They have a problem that affects somewhere around 1% of the M8's out there, and they are working on fixing it. Somehow, to guys like you, that is apparently criminal behavior?
Seriously, what do you want? Do you want them to just go out of business? Do you want them to abandon the M8 and go back to the Twin Cam? I would think them taking efforts to fix the issue and make warrantied repairs on every bike that manifests a problem would be interpreted as the actions of a responsible company.
Changes happen. Running changes happen. They have a problem that affects somewhere around 1% of the M8's out there, and they are working on fixing it. Somehow, to guys like you, that is apparently criminal behavior?
Seriously, what do you want? Do you want them to just go out of business? Do you want them to abandon the M8 and go back to the Twin Cam? I would think them taking efforts to fix the issue and make warrantied repairs on every bike that manifests a problem would be interpreted as the actions of a responsible company.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,676
Likes: 11,468
From: State of Confusion
I still contend it's sloppy mass producing manufacturing QC issues rather than design flaw. and the oil pump revisions are one of the easiest and cheapest attempts at solutions to mitigate the problems with engines that made it thru the sloppy manufacturing processes, which could be a combination of things. I'm convinced, knowing what we know, that the vast majority of these engines (~300,000 ish) produced aren't sumping or going to sump. I could be wrong of course, but it makes the most common sense, to me anyway.
when Plasma TVs were introduced they were $10,000..the reason was 9 out of 10 were tossed away for not passing inspections before production. wasn't the design, when they were put together properly as designed they worked as designed. abstract analogy perhaps but all points to issues with inaccurate manufacturing...slipping in to flame retardant suit so commence flaming
when Plasma TVs were introduced they were $10,000..the reason was 9 out of 10 were tossed away for not passing inspections before production. wasn't the design, when they were put together properly as designed they worked as designed. abstract analogy perhaps but all points to issues with inaccurate manufacturing...slipping in to flame retardant suit so commence flaming
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 4,251
Likes: 3,134
From: Texas
Look, if you and the other chicken littles are right, the MoCo will be out of business soon, buried under hundreds of thousands of engine repairs. So you'll get your way anyway. The sky will fall, the MoCo will go out of business and you'll **** on their grave. Would that make you happy?
Me, on the other hand, I see a company standing behind its product, trying to make it better, and fixing all failed engines under warranty. Because that is what they are doing. And I still can't see how that's bad.
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 858
Likes: 140
From: USA
I still contend it's sloppy mass producing manufacturing QC issues rather than design flaw. and the oil pump revisions are one of the easiest and cheapest attempts at solutions to mitigate the problems with engines that made it thru the sloppy manufacturing processes, which could be a combination of things. I'm convinced, knowing what we know, that the vast majority of these engines (~300,000 ish) produced aren't sumping or going to sump. I could be wrong of course, but it makes the most common sense, to me anyway.
when Plasma TVs were introduced they were $10,000..the reason was 9 out of 10 were tossed away for not passing inspections before production. wasn't the design, when they were put together properly as designed they worked as designed. abstract analogy perhaps but all points to issues with inaccurate manufacturing...slipping in to flame retardant suit so commence flaming
when Plasma TVs were introduced they were $10,000..the reason was 9 out of 10 were tossed away for not passing inspections before production. wasn't the design, when they were put together properly as designed they worked as designed. abstract analogy perhaps but all points to issues with inaccurate manufacturing...slipping in to flame retardant suit so commence flaming
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,676
Likes: 11,468
From: State of Confusion
Yeah...that's why they are re-designing and putting in different parts to try and solve the problem..... because they have a QC issue. Mr. Lumpis on the production line can't assembly something correctly so rather than deal with that they make 15 re-designs to an oil pump to try and fix it. That makes sense.
well then let's reverse it. all these same engines rolling off the assembly line...what's 'right' or 'not wrong' if that helps you...with all the identical engines that don't have the problems (vast majority) ? what changed, or is different on the same engines with the same parts? or do you believe down the road "they all do that" in regards to sumping will finally be an accurate statement..??
Last edited by mjwebb; Oct 10, 2018 at 11:15 PM.
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 858
Likes: 140
From: USA
Your'e right. They are the best.
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Banned
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 437
From: Mandurah, West Oz
I still contend it's sloppy mass producing manufacturing QC issues rather than design flaw. and the oil pump revisions are one of the easiest and cheapest attempts at solutions to mitigate the problems with engines that made it thru the sloppy manufacturing processes, which could be a combination of things. I'm convinced, knowing what we know, that the vast majority of these engines (~300,000 ish) produced aren't sumping or going to sump. I could be wrong of course, but it makes the most common sense, to me anyway.
slipping in to flame retardant suit so commence flaming
slipping in to flame retardant suit so commence flaming
Things get made with tolerances, the sloppier the tolerance the cheaper it is to make.
Maybe the reasons some bikes are OK and some sump is:
Non-sumping = accurate part + accurate part OR accurate part + extreme edge of tolerance part = Good.
Sumping = extreme negative tolerance part + extreme positive tolerance part = pile of ****.
Bear in mind that even a 5% tolerance (which is good for mass machined parts) has a plus/minus component.... -5% to +5% is a 10% overall difference.
Maybe that's why this sumping only affects (unknown percentage as it's all covered up) %.
When you mate OK to +/- tolerance it still works out. But when you mate the extreme +/- edges of tolerance then it fails.
Last edited by OzHD; Oct 11, 2018 at 05:52 AM. Reason: typos and more typos
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,034
Likes: 128
You seem to have a rather harsh view of most things. I am not sure how you would come by that analysis unless you had a series of traumatic events at an early age that left you with the belief that nobody can be trusted, especially when it comes to money. Never the less, could you define your term "to screw their customers out of as much money as possible at ever opportunity". I am just trying to understand how someone could be so negative about everything. Realize that it is not my intention to impugn you in any way, only to understand from where you are coming from.