So the vast majority of 17, 18 M8’s running oil pump revisions from #1 to #7 whatever & none of those pumps have shown to stop sumping. You just said it now appears they have found a cure for sumping but the MoCo shouldn’t replace the old versions because it will cost them too much money? How about the customers? How about all those people that have no clue about this issue & will start sumping bikes out if warranty? It’s bound to happen probably thousands of times. So a guy buys a $43k cvo & he’s like so many pro MoCo posters say, never heard of sumping & 1 month out of warranty, his engine burns down because of a very well know issue (to many here & the moco)called sumping, so F.ck that guy? The MoCo has knowledge that this has been happening for years that because it will cost them money they are in the right for not taking care of loyal customers? Ok so if true that it only affects an ultra tiny # of bikes & they don’t want to spend all that money to install the seal on all 2017/2018’s,,,,,so if a customers bike sumos out if warranty, because it’s a known ‘pre existing condition’, are they going to take care of that customer & do the repair without making the customer pay? I’m not even saying that I believe they will proactively fix all these 2017, 2018 bikes, they obviously won’t but I definitely don’t feel they’re in the right not to do so because it would cost them too much,,,,,they absolutely should do the right thing & they’re absolutely wrong not to.

They’ve done a good job of finding a fix, handling this issue??? Have you ever heard of a case like this where brand new engines are being blown up, 3 model years running & the manufacturer has revised the part they are saying responsible 8 times? Quite a few customers have needed multiple motors or had it “fixed”numerous times, not just a simple repair either, we’re taking motor overhauls & new motors. Can you imagine looking at a used car & seeing in the car fax - 3 repairs for new engines, is that a car you’d buy? What’s going to happen in resale for these guys if savvy buyers look at service history, or even the dealers that they may want to trade into? The guy w/ the cvo limited (on cvo forum) sumped 3 times & the last time the bike lasted a total of 74 miles strictly under 3k rpm. And w/ zero communication w/ owners & dealerships about the actual cause of the problem? I’d say it is without question the WORST handling of such a major major issue where you actually blow a motor that I have ever seen. If Harley didn’t have such die hard customers & a unique product, if they had a lot more direct competition & owners willing to switch brands, they’d probably be out if business. I can’t think of another manufacturer that could survive under identical circumstances. Their handling of this s.cks *****.

99% of M8 owners don’t post here, so the quantity of sumping reports really here has zero to do w how many M8’s have been produced, the relevant #s to compare are the actual # of people here that post or will post vs the # of reports here. That’s a much much smaller # than all M8’s sold. Maybe 1% of all M8 owners post or will post here? There is no way this only affects 0.10% of M8’s. And in fact not everyone that posts here will post about it if their bike sumps. But if everyone out there in the world that owned an M8 that sumped posted about it here we’d probably see dozens of reports each day. Yes 4 2019’s have already reported sumping here & there’s a lot less 2019’s out there & even fewer 2019 owners here that post have already bought one, if it’s a 100 forum owners that now own M8’s I’d be surprised so that would be 4% have sumped. Wild guesstimate taking out Softails were probably looking at 2-3% avg of bikes, 2-3 of every 100 blow their motor w/ CVO’s probably a higher %, which is a major problem.

The guy w/ the 2019 red pepper CVO RG, that showed a vid of his bike dumping boiling oil, he just reported that his nephews 19 CVO RG (mako) just sumped this week too. If this problem really only affected 1% of bikes the chance that it would occur to both their bikes is actually one in 10,000 or a 0.01% chance. So they’re either the unluckiest 2 people in the universe or more than likely this issue is more widespread that some people want to believe.

And think you also mentioned the heads, heat shields, etc. But that’s a ton of issues on relatively new bikes. Sincere question; have you owned any new bikes from other manufacturers recently? It is possible to get that “Toyota” quality from other bike manufacturers, many models are next to bulletproof for a fraction of the cost, although they’re in totally different riding categories. I know people here aren’t interested in sports bikes just as an example- My H2 was a brand new model but from the ground up, first supercharged Motorcycle, not a single part or even fastener or screw was a carry over from another model (well tires are not model unique) & many features & mechanical systems were brand new tech/firsts for any manufacturer, not just the entire motor & driveline but first trellis frame for Kawi, first single sided swingarm, brand new display, controls, ecu, wheels, brakes, suspension & the Ag silver layer paint process was never done before, etc etc. Unlike the M8 touring, baggers which share many similar parts w/ the previous Twin Cam touring & baggers. Yet, I’ve not had a single issue w/ the bike & it’s ridden hard both on the street & at circuit & mile tracks. Even though a stock H2 puts out 3 times the hp & equal the torque of an M8 w/ almost half the cubic inches & running a completely new supercharger & equipment to support it, have yet to hear of a single stock engine failure out there & have been a H2 forum member during the 4 model years. In fact can’t recall a single problem that multiple H2 owners have w/ their bikes.

Anyway, think our expectations are too low, why is it too much to ask that Harley makes a bike that is more reliable & especially a more reliable motor? Why does it often take numerous years of customer beta testing before huge issues are resolved or where people need after market parts for decent reliability? They certainly have the R&D, Design, Engineering, Manufacturing & experience to do so. Many bike manufacturers update engines even whole models every 5 years or so, Harley had 17 years during Twin Cam production to do the work on the next generation, the M8, you’d figure w/ all their resources & all that time which is an eternity, dunno, just feel that they could have made this a more successful launch, think it’s been a real failure and certainly won’t help change the perception of Harley’s reliability reputation out there that many have... No doubt it’ll be a great, reliable motor eventually, it’s just frustrating.

But completely agree even w/ all the reliability grief Harley is still in a class all their own for the products they produce, especially w/ the CVO’s, there’s just nothing else in the cruising or touring market that I would choose over a new CVO bagger. And while I have had too many sports bikes to list I never keep them long term (partly because they get better & better so much quicker than say Harley’s) I might hold onto my H2 but definitely not parting w/ a couple of Harley’s that I bought new 15 & 26 years ago, when I get a M8 CVO SG or RG might even keep my 16 CVO as well, love that bike. And have never felt screwed on any Harley I’ve ever owned.