HD sump fix
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,143
Likes: 11,211
From: San Diego, CA
While that may be true, they still need a "stop-gap" method (plate/seal) to use on problem MY17 & 18 motors...I guess it remains to be seen whether a similar percentage of MY19 bikes sump vs MY18 bikes that sump...still have approx 1.5 mos of MY19 production, supposedly without the new plate/seal added.
I would think they would have done their damnedest to fix any/all problems leading to sumping on MY19 bikes...the plate/seal would be a short term only and not a long term solution IMO...but hey, time will tell...
I'm watching this very closely as I want to get a 114 LTD at some point...
I would think they would have done their damnedest to fix any/all problems leading to sumping on MY19 bikes...the plate/seal would be a short term only and not a long term solution IMO...but hey, time will tell...
I'm watching this very closely as I want to get a 114 LTD at some point...
The "stop-gap" method for fixing the 17/18 engines seems to be the "permanent fix" for 2019... there have been 2019s without the plate/seal that have sumped, so the MoCo, as yet, hasn't spent the $$$ to fix the actual cause.
I also agree they are "doing their damnedest" to get the problem fixed for 2019...if by "doing their damnedest" means the cheapest fix that minimally affects their bottom line ($$$$). I suspect the re-engineering of the sump portion of the engine case, the gasket/flow/screws of the piston jets, and the quality control of their cylinder boring are going to be too expensive to correct, even in a running production change...
I was excited to get an M8 bike, ever since the rumors of the M8 were leaked.... but with sumping and the trans to primary oil transfer issue, even though the odds are in my favor of getting a problem free bike, the stakes of spending $30K on a bike that has either problem (which as of yet they cannot reliably fix), are too high for me to play their game....
Last edited by hattitude; Oct 15, 2018 at 10:11 AM.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,807
Likes: 1,488
From: SW Washington State
The Motor Company has been making changes without always changing the part number. So Without thorough knowledge of the physical changes that have been made from day one to these pumps, its difficult to clearly say whats in your engine. So we are left with what they have said in their SB, if that not the case? well, that blows.
Last edited by sixguns; Oct 15, 2018 at 12:57 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,996
Likes: 417
From: Cranbourne, VIC Australia
The Motor Company has been making changes without always changing the part number. So Without thorough knowledge of the physical changes that have been made from day one to these pumps, its difficult to clearly say whats in your engine. So we are left with what they have said in their SB, if that not the case? well, that blows.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,807
Likes: 1,488
From: SW Washington State
It does suck not knowing for sure without opening it up. And yes I understand they specified a hard date, but any bikes built on that day would have had an engine built prior, so unless they opened it on the assembly line and swapped parts, which I doubt, then the engine was assembled with the previously authorized parts. I would be willing to wager that it took 10-14 days, or whatever their lead time for engines and transmissions is for bikes to finally leave the plant assembled with the newly specified parts. that is just my opinion though.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 7,323
Likes: 11,760
From: Omaha,NE
It does suck not knowing for sure without opening it up. And yes I understand they specified a hard date, but any bikes built on that day would have had an engine built prior, so unless they opened it on the assembly line and swapped parts, which I doubt, then the engine was assembled with the previously authorized parts. I would be willing to wager that it took 10-14 days, or whatever their lead time for engines and transmissions is for bikes to finally leave the plant assembled with the newly specified parts. that is just my opinion though.
I had to do this with Ford MoCo. After a dozen or so phone calls you can generally find an engineer with the information. Trouble is, they won't talk to outsiders. You need to find a dealer with connections to do the legwork for you.
Banned
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 437
From: Mandurah, West Oz
We are basically in agreement.... with a few caveats...
The "stop-gap" method for fixing the 17/18 engines seems to be the "permanent fix" for 2019... there have been 2019s without the plate/seal that have sumped, so the MoCo, as yet, hasn't spent the $$$ to fix the actual cause.
I also agree they are "doing their damnedest" to get the problem fixed for 2019...if by "doing their damnedest" means the cheapest fix that minimally affects their bottom line ($$$$). I suspect the re-engineering of the sump portion of the engine case, the gasket/flow/screws of the piston jets, and the quality control of their cylinder boring are going to be too expensive to correct, even in a running production change...
I was excited to get an M8 bike, ever since the rumors of the M8 were leaked.... but with sumping and the trans to primary oil transfer issue, even though the odds are in my favor of getting a problem free bike, the stakes of spending $30K on a bike that has either problem (which as of yet they cannot reliably fix), are too high for me to play their game....
The "stop-gap" method for fixing the 17/18 engines seems to be the "permanent fix" for 2019... there have been 2019s without the plate/seal that have sumped, so the MoCo, as yet, hasn't spent the $$$ to fix the actual cause.
I also agree they are "doing their damnedest" to get the problem fixed for 2019...if by "doing their damnedest" means the cheapest fix that minimally affects their bottom line ($$$$). I suspect the re-engineering of the sump portion of the engine case, the gasket/flow/screws of the piston jets, and the quality control of their cylinder boring are going to be too expensive to correct, even in a running production change...
I was excited to get an M8 bike, ever since the rumors of the M8 were leaked.... but with sumping and the trans to primary oil transfer issue, even though the odds are in my favor of getting a problem free bike, the stakes of spending $30K on a bike that has either problem (which as of yet they cannot reliably fix), are too high for me to play their game....
I expect that they'll do the full redesign for a 2020 model, new fairings, additional style changes to capture the fanboys all over again and the "fix" to capture the people leery of the pre-2020 M8.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,034
Likes: 127
When I look at the "help wanted" list of engineering jobs in the U.S. that the MOCO has posted on line I see over 100 listings. Many are engineering type jobs of various descriptions. I see some with the description of "power train" engineers wanted. Since the MOCO does not have but a few manufacturing and development plants what I see would seem like they have a shortage of senior or qualified engineers on staff to figure out why after 3 years they are still having engine and transmission problems which should have been caught in the early development days of the engineering process of the M8 platform.
Since I am not an expert on manufacturing I am not knowledgeable enough to know where they need to concentrate their efforts in order to fix the inherent transmission and sumping issues that effects owners of 2017-2019 model motorcycles. But I do know that after 3 model years and the same problems exist, the MOCO does not know either. At what point do they need to seek outside engineers to fix this? It matters little to me how many owners are actually having problems. It could be 1% or it could be more. What I do know is that if you are one who has the problem...then it matters to you. It also make no difference if you have a warranty if the manufacturer does not have the ability to fix the problems. All the people that discount the problem or are having zero problems are immaterial to those of us that do. It is kind of like having influenza, you don't worry about it until you have it.
Since I am not an expert on manufacturing I am not knowledgeable enough to know where they need to concentrate their efforts in order to fix the inherent transmission and sumping issues that effects owners of 2017-2019 model motorcycles. But I do know that after 3 model years and the same problems exist, the MOCO does not know either. At what point do they need to seek outside engineers to fix this? It matters little to me how many owners are actually having problems. It could be 1% or it could be more. What I do know is that if you are one who has the problem...then it matters to you. It also make no difference if you have a warranty if the manufacturer does not have the ability to fix the problems. All the people that discount the problem or are having zero problems are immaterial to those of us that do. It is kind of like having influenza, you don't worry about it until you have it.
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,055
Likes: 8,080
From: Canada
And that'll kill the resale value of the stop gap M8 engine even more than it already is.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,055
Likes: 8,080
From: Canada
When I look at the "help wanted" list of engineering jobs in the U.S. that the MOCO has posted on line I see over 100 listings. Many are engineering type jobs of various descriptions. I see some with the description of "power train" engineers wanted. Since the MOCO does not have but a few manufacturing and development plants what I see would seem like they have a shortage of senior or qualified engineers on staff to figure out why after 3 years they are still having engine and transmission problems which should have been caught in the early development days of the engineering process of the M8 platform.
Since I am not an expert on manufacturing I am not knowledgeable enough to know where they need to concentrate their efforts in order to fix the inherent transmission and sumping issues that effects owners of 2017-2019 model motorcycles. But I do know that after 3 model years and the same problems exist, the MOCO does not know either. At what point do they need to seek outside engineers to fix this? It matters little to me how many owners are actually having problems. It could be 1% or it could be more. What I do know is that if you are one who has the problem...then it matters to you. It also make no difference if you have a warranty if the manufacturer does not have the ability to fix the problems. All the people that discount the problem or are having zero problems are immaterial to those of us that do. It is kind of like having influenza, you don't worry about it until you have it.
Since I am not an expert on manufacturing I am not knowledgeable enough to know where they need to concentrate their efforts in order to fix the inherent transmission and sumping issues that effects owners of 2017-2019 model motorcycles. But I do know that after 3 model years and the same problems exist, the MOCO does not know either. At what point do they need to seek outside engineers to fix this? It matters little to me how many owners are actually having problems. It could be 1% or it could be more. What I do know is that if you are one who has the problem...then it matters to you. It also make no difference if you have a warranty if the manufacturer does not have the ability to fix the problems. All the people that discount the problem or are having zero problems are immaterial to those of us that do. It is kind of like having influenza, you don't worry about it until you have it.
They know what the problem is. Fixing it as cheaply as possible is what they're trying to figure out.