103 Big Bore verus 103 Hop Up difference?
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Cruiser
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103 Big Bore verus 103 Hop Up difference?
I am going to my dealer Saturday to discuss engine mods. Today they mentioned a little bit about the 103 Hop Up Kit. Could someone shed some light on the difference and what the power numbers would be between them? Seems like I am going away from my first thoughts which were bolt in cams. Thanks.
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: san antonio
Don't know that there is a difference; big bore Stage I, II, III or IV may be the hop up kits they are talking about. Delkron has a 103 Hop Up kit; pistons, cylinders, rings, gaskets and heads for about $1200. It would be out of character for a dealer to be pushing aftermarket products, so they are likely talking about one of their 103"' big bore stage builds. This time of year, some dealers are offering 50% discounts on parts and labor for these kits and although I am not fan of dealer builds, those deals are hard to pass up.
If you were going in for bolt in cams, don't get side tracked unless they make you an offer you can't refuse; stick with your plan.
What cams did you decide on?
If you were going in for bolt in cams, don't get side tracked unless they make you an offer you can't refuse; stick with your plan.
What cams did you decide on?
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2010
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From: n
I have been doing a lot of reading on this website and others about the 103s and I have not ran across the "103 Hop Up Kit". What I can tell you is there are about as many different views on cams and 103s as there are on oil. I have a 103 with the SE 255 cams, it is the SE Stage II kit right out of the box from HD. It works well for me as I mostly just ride (average probably 150 miles a ride about 4-5 times a week), often 2 up. The 255 cams give you good low end torque, but it runs out as you really start getting into high RPMs--which I really don't get into that often. They probably don't produce the torque and hp that many of the other 103 setups produce. It has good throttle response (70+ mph) in 6th gear and makes it more usable. It is a good set up if you ride in hilly or mountainous country and is great out on the interstate. It really depends on the type of riding you do and what you want out of the upgrade. There are other cams which widen the power band, but also may require some head work or one of the multitude of tuners vs a canned map to really get the most out of them. I have also gleaned from reading all this stuff is the numbers while not meaningless vary from dyno to dyno and tuner to tuner. I have also found it surprising how many people are very critical of the HD stuff. Some are so dogmatic about it, I wonder why they even have a Harley. The bottom line to my response is I think you really need to know exactly what you want out of your upgrade and how well it matches your riding style. I think there is an upgrade for every riding style and what is great for how you ride might be a POS for the next guy. Just basing your decision by simply looking at graphs and numbers may lead you to disappointment. Good luck!
Tourer
Joined: Nov 2008
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From: poughkeepsie, ny
WOW, bullet proof advice from djl & fdb2007. If I may, when you get your 103" finished don't skimp on the tune. From what Iv'e seen personally and read most dealers will do a OK job on the tune. If you want to get every penny out of all that money you just spent on your 103", you need a professional tune. A bike I read about here gained 14hp & 11ft.lbs. and another picked up 11hp & 9ft.lbs. I try not to get wrapped up in the numbers (I said try), but this is what we have to look at. Seat of the pants, you can feel the instant throttle response, smooth linear power band, no decel popping, maximized fuel mileage and so on. In qualified hands, a dyno is a very expensive tool that can get every last pony out of your engine.
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Cruiser
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I'm leaning toward the Andrews 48. The dealer is offering 103 big bore, cylinder boring, se flat top pistons, rings, clips, pins, complete top end gaskets, ecm calibration, cams for 1600 out the door. Then he said they have the hop up kit for just a little more, including the se tuner. They have some bikes there that I can listen to hear if the sound is to my liking. But believe me, I am not someone to let them talk me out of my initial thoughts of bolt in cams. Unless of course, it is some special deal. I'll keep ya posted. Thanks again for everyone's advice.
Cruiser
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If you have someone you trust go with them. If not ask around I'm sure someone would help you and maybe even safe you some $$.
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Road Master
Joined: Nov 2009
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From: Yakima WA
Lot's of good comments here. I have a 2010 Street Glide with a stage II 103 / SE 255 combo. As you can see in my sig line it works well and suits my riding style for this bike.
As to private shop vs. dealer doing the work, there are some great dealer shops out there too. My stage II 103 was done at a dealer shop, and I am having the same dealer shop install and tune the SE 120R that is going in my 06 Street Bob.
As suggested, do your homework for your style of riding and find a shop that will do a good job for you. Big inch engines are being built and ridden as daily drivers more all the time.
As to private shop vs. dealer doing the work, there are some great dealer shops out there too. My stage II 103 was done at a dealer shop, and I am having the same dealer shop install and tune the SE 120R that is going in my 06 Street Bob.
As suggested, do your homework for your style of riding and find a shop that will do a good job for you. Big inch engines are being built and ridden as daily drivers more all the time.
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Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2009
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I'm not saying that you can't get a dealer that will do a fantastic job. There are some out there that stand behind their work. I'm saying that they are generally a bit more expensive and tend to push Harley or SE branded items which I'm not saying are bad either. What I was trying to get at was the same thing you had mentioned talk to a couple different builders and do some research to see what you can have built for your budget. Motor work is one thing I love reading about.
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: san antonio
This 103 bolt on kit is designed to provide increased performance
enhancements at an attractive price range that will
work with your Original E quipment heads. Kit includes 3-7/8"
diameter highlighted cylinders, forged aluminum 10.5:1
compression ratio pistons, an SE259E cam supported by
high-performance valve springs along with the appropriate
Perfect-Fit Pushrods and gasket kit. In addition kit includes
our must have E FI Super T uner to provide the correct
calibration for appropriate tuning abilities.
FWIW, here's my take. First the deal ain't that great. The published price for the above kit is $1499.95; no labor. You can buy the kit yourself from Zanotti's for $1260. Most dealers would charge at least 8 hours; some 12 at about $75 per. So, if you pay retail for the kit, plus $600-$900 for labor, you are looking at $2100-$2400 out the door without a tune. Does the dealer quote inlcude a tune? If so, that's worth about $300. You will end up with about 105TQ/95HP; could be 110TQ/100HP depending on tune and peaking between 3500-4500. Additionally, you are stuck with the SEST tuner which, IMHO, is lacking compared to the older SERT and/or the TTS Mastertune which is probably the best available now.
If the dealer was really dealing and the out the door price, with tune was in the $1500 range, the deal would be hard to turn down but I would probably insist on the 254E cam in lieu of the 259E.
Your original plan, i.e. a cam only upgrade to a 96" using the SE204 or Andrews 48H cams will not get you 110TQ/HP but should get 100+TQ/95HP with a broader curve and a bike that is more fun to ride for the less than half of the SE upgrade. Either cam will work nicely but I am liking the SE204 with a 4* advance gear.