Ethanol?
Tourer
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 281
Likes: 1
From: Cleveland,TN USA
There you go, the government is going to mandate something that I have to put an additive in to use. Or else by a new lawn mower that is designed to burn crap. I guess that is economic stimuli.
Last edited by mooseye; Aug 31, 2012 at 10:23 PM.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 14
From: navarre ohio
i worked in bike shops as a mechanic for 13 years..in the early-mid 00's the fuel changed. it doesn't last long,and plugs everything up pretty bad. it is a lot more noticeable in smaller engines like small bikes,lawn equipment, and outboard engines. they went from 5%-10% about 5 years ago,now they are trying to push 15%. ethanol attracts water, and eats away at rubber fuel parts. you end up with a rusted deteriorated fuel system over time. you wont notice it till 5-10 years down the road.. the vehicles that say flex-fuel are the only ones that are really safe to use the ethanol in.they use fuel safe plastic and stainless steel in the fuel system... not to mention lower fuel mileage along with higher fuel prices. most boat marinas sell ethanol free fuel, but it costs more, and technically illegal for highway use because it isn't taxed the same.
Last edited by j1mmy; Aug 31, 2012 at 10:32 PM.
Tourer
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 281
Likes: 1
From: Cleveland,TN USA
i worked in bike shops as a mechanic for 13 years..in the early-mid 00's the fuel changed. it doesn't last long,and plugs everything up pretty bad. it is a lot more noticeable in smaller engines like small bikes,lawn equipment, and outboard engines. they went from 5%-10% about 5 years ago,now they are trying to push 15%. ethanol attracts water, and eats away at rubber fuel parts. you end up with a rusted deteriorated fuel system over time. you wont notice it till 5-10 years down the road.. the vehicles that say flex-fuel are the only ones that are really safe to use the ethanol in.they use fuel safe plastic and stainless steel in the fuel system... not to mention lower fuel mileage along with higher fuel prices. most boat marinas sell ethanol free fuel, but it costs more, and technically illegal for highway use because it isn't taxed the same.
Last edited by mooseye; Aug 31, 2012 at 11:00 PM.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 12,986
Likes: 715
From: NE Philly
No clogging issues so far with ethanol in my '06 Dyna and '10 Softail. My only complaint with ethanol is that it lowered the highway mileage about 4-5mpg on my '06 Dyna.
It's probably the same for my '10 Softail since it gets about 7mpg less than the rated highway mileage (46mpg vs 53mpg). The local stations switched to ethanol by the time I bought my '10 softail. So there's no way to determine how much of that could be related to overly optimistic fuel mileage ratings vs ethanol (probably a bit of both).
Anyone else notice the lack of separate Premium pumps with newer gas stations? They use the same shared nozzle for regular, mid-grade, and premium pump gas. Makes you wonder how much 87 octane your putting in your Harley's tank when you're paying for premium.
And it gets worse for bikes vs cars that require premium because of how much smaller our tanks are. Unless the last vehicle at the pump was using premium (unlikely), you're probably pumping a decent amount of low octane into your tank.
It's probably the same for my '10 Softail since it gets about 7mpg less than the rated highway mileage (46mpg vs 53mpg). The local stations switched to ethanol by the time I bought my '10 softail. So there's no way to determine how much of that could be related to overly optimistic fuel mileage ratings vs ethanol (probably a bit of both).
Anyone else notice the lack of separate Premium pumps with newer gas stations? They use the same shared nozzle for regular, mid-grade, and premium pump gas. Makes you wonder how much 87 octane your putting in your Harley's tank when you're paying for premium.
And it gets worse for bikes vs cars that require premium because of how much smaller our tanks are. Unless the last vehicle at the pump was using premium (unlikely), you're probably pumping a decent amount of low octane into your tank.
pi*r^2*l
If the pump returns the gas to the holding tank it's not an issue.
Obviously a LOT of misinformatin out there...
#1 - ethanol blends will NOT clog anything, in fact it will help clean your fuel system and help keep your valves carbon free.
#2 - ethyl alcohol DOES absorb water, which keeps the water in gasoline from separating from the gas and keeps it blended.
#3 - Yes ethanol will hurt gas mileage, but ONLY if blended above 30% by volume, otherwise no difference.
#4 - Ethanol INCRESES octane in the fuel, which allows the petroleum companies to use less aromatics in their gasoline, which in turn they are able to produce lower quality gasoline because they blend 10% ethanol into it in increase oxygenates rather than having to utilize expensive aromatic production process to increase the quality of their gasoline. FYI - octane prevents pre-ignition which is very bad for your engine H-D or otherwise...it does not make it produce more power, that's where the btu conversions come into play and how well your engine converts heat and combustion to power.
#5 - 10% ehtanol blends are approved for use in anything street legal, but YES ethanol and rubber do not mix...note your older lawn mower/weed eater fuel lines, they will dry out and deteriorate.
#6 - The food vs. fuel thing is a bunch of BS! The corn grown to produce ethanol is corn that would be otherwise used for ANIMAL feed stock, not the corn you eat at the table, which is all "sweet" corn produecd for human consumption only. During the production of ethanol, the starch in the corn is converted to sugars, which are then fermented to alcohol...the rest of the product is dried and put right back in the animal food chain in the form of dried distillers grains (DDGS), which is a high protein feed.
#7 - Ethanol will actually increase the HP your engine generates, not decrease it. (See #4 heat conversion) My cage (2011 Chevy truck), which is flex fuel makes more hp & torque running on E85...says is right in the owners manual. My mileage is worse, but I can feel the power gain & it's much cheaper here, so economically E85 is more efficient to run in my truck. There is no visible carbon in the tail pipe whatsoever and it smells great. I had a 2008 which I drove for 36,000 using nothing but E85.
I'm not pulling some kind of pro-ethanol bs...just stating the FACTS. I work at an ethanol plant, and I also worked at a refinery for 10 years so I know both sides of both industries from a technical, economic and environmental standpoint. IF petroleum companies did not use ethanol to blend into their fuels, they would have to produce more aromatics to blend in, which is an extremely expensive and time consuming process. Gas prices at the pump would be in the $5.00+ range if that process was currently used. Ethanol is used rather than aromatics because of the environmental impacts of aromatics...ever heard of Benzene?
#1 - ethanol blends will NOT clog anything, in fact it will help clean your fuel system and help keep your valves carbon free.
#2 - ethyl alcohol DOES absorb water, which keeps the water in gasoline from separating from the gas and keeps it blended.
#3 - Yes ethanol will hurt gas mileage, but ONLY if blended above 30% by volume, otherwise no difference.
#4 - Ethanol INCRESES octane in the fuel, which allows the petroleum companies to use less aromatics in their gasoline, which in turn they are able to produce lower quality gasoline because they blend 10% ethanol into it in increase oxygenates rather than having to utilize expensive aromatic production process to increase the quality of their gasoline. FYI - octane prevents pre-ignition which is very bad for your engine H-D or otherwise...it does not make it produce more power, that's where the btu conversions come into play and how well your engine converts heat and combustion to power.
#5 - 10% ehtanol blends are approved for use in anything street legal, but YES ethanol and rubber do not mix...note your older lawn mower/weed eater fuel lines, they will dry out and deteriorate.
#6 - The food vs. fuel thing is a bunch of BS! The corn grown to produce ethanol is corn that would be otherwise used for ANIMAL feed stock, not the corn you eat at the table, which is all "sweet" corn produecd for human consumption only. During the production of ethanol, the starch in the corn is converted to sugars, which are then fermented to alcohol...the rest of the product is dried and put right back in the animal food chain in the form of dried distillers grains (DDGS), which is a high protein feed.
#7 - Ethanol will actually increase the HP your engine generates, not decrease it. (See #4 heat conversion) My cage (2011 Chevy truck), which is flex fuel makes more hp & torque running on E85...says is right in the owners manual. My mileage is worse, but I can feel the power gain & it's much cheaper here, so economically E85 is more efficient to run in my truck. There is no visible carbon in the tail pipe whatsoever and it smells great. I had a 2008 which I drove for 36,000 using nothing but E85.
I'm not pulling some kind of pro-ethanol bs...just stating the FACTS. I work at an ethanol plant, and I also worked at a refinery for 10 years so I know both sides of both industries from a technical, economic and environmental standpoint. IF petroleum companies did not use ethanol to blend into their fuels, they would have to produce more aromatics to blend in, which is an extremely expensive and time consuming process. Gas prices at the pump would be in the $5.00+ range if that process was currently used. Ethanol is used rather than aromatics because of the environmental impacts of aromatics...ever heard of Benzene?
Tourer
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 281
Likes: 1
From: Cleveland,TN USA
All correct info! I did my research as I had a flex fuel F-150 and it ran 10 times better on E85. gas mileage was less but it's a trade off for more power. On another note. I've been having start issues w/ my Harley and the dealership I took it to was blaming more ethanol in the gas for a lot of issues they were having w/ the bikes in their shop. That just didn't make sense to me at all.
Last edited by mooseye; Sep 1, 2012 at 08:48 AM.
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Tourer
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 281
Likes: 1
From: Cleveland,TN USA
I am also still surprised that so many people still refer to grades of gasoline as "premium". That was a marketing ploy used way back to make people want to by the higher priced "ethyl" fuel. We called it high test when I was a pump jockey. Everyone thought it would make your car run stronger because it was so named and cost more. I am sure a lot of you understand the purpose of higher octane, but it seems many are still under the delusion that it makes more horse power. It may well, and probably does in a high compression engine by helping to prevent detonation which may be experienced on lower octane. But my bike, truck, and other things run great on 87 and it costs less. It is really ironic that "premium" is actually designed to be harder to light off in the cylinder than the (cheap) stuff but is perceived to make more power.
Road Master
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 946
Likes: 8
From: USA/CA
Obviously a LOT of misinformatin out there...
#1 - ethanol blends will NOT clog anything, in fact it will help clean your fuel system and help keep your valves carbon free.
#2 - ethyl alcohol DOES absorb water, which keeps the water in gasoline from separating from the gas and keeps it blended.
#3 - Yes ethanol will hurt gas mileage, but ONLY if blended above 30% by volume, otherwise no difference.
#4 - Ethanol INCRESES octane in the fuel, which allows the petroleum companies to use less aromatics in their gasoline, which in turn they are able to produce lower quality gasoline because they blend 10% ethanol into it in increase oxygenates rather than having to utilize expensive aromatic production process to increase the quality of their gasoline. FYI - octane prevents pre-ignition which is very bad for your engine H-D or otherwise...it does not make it produce more power, that's where the btu conversions come into play and how well your engine converts heat and combustion to power.
#5 - 10% ehtanol blends are approved for use in anything street legal, but YES ethanol and rubber do not mix...note your older lawn mower/weed eater fuel lines, they will dry out and deteriorate.
#6 - The food vs. fuel thing is a bunch of BS! The corn grown to produce ethanol is corn that would be otherwise used for ANIMAL feed stock, not the corn you eat at the table, which is all "sweet" corn produecd for human consumption only. During the production of ethanol, the starch in the corn is converted to sugars, which are then fermented to alcohol...the rest of the product is dried and put right back in the animal food chain in the form of dried distillers grains (DDGS), which is a high protein feed.
#7 - Ethanol will actually increase the HP your engine generates, not decrease it. (See #4 heat conversion) My cage (2011 Chevy truck), which is flex fuel makes more hp & torque running on E85...says is right in the owners manual. My mileage is worse, but I can feel the power gain & it's much cheaper here, so economically E85 is more efficient to run in my truck. There is no visible carbon in the tail pipe whatsoever and it smells great. I had a 2008 which I drove for 36,000 using nothing but E85.
I'm not pulling some kind of pro-ethanol bs...just stating the FACTS. I work at an ethanol plant, and I also worked at a refinery for 10 years so I know both sides of both industries from a technical, economic and environmental standpoint. IF petroleum companies did not use ethanol to blend into their fuels, they would have to produce more aromatics to blend in, which is an extremely expensive and time consuming process. Gas prices at the pump would be in the $5.00+ range if that process was currently used. Ethanol is used rather than aromatics because of the environmental impacts of aromatics...ever heard of Benzene?
#1 - ethanol blends will NOT clog anything, in fact it will help clean your fuel system and help keep your valves carbon free.
#2 - ethyl alcohol DOES absorb water, which keeps the water in gasoline from separating from the gas and keeps it blended.
#3 - Yes ethanol will hurt gas mileage, but ONLY if blended above 30% by volume, otherwise no difference.
#4 - Ethanol INCRESES octane in the fuel, which allows the petroleum companies to use less aromatics in their gasoline, which in turn they are able to produce lower quality gasoline because they blend 10% ethanol into it in increase oxygenates rather than having to utilize expensive aromatic production process to increase the quality of their gasoline. FYI - octane prevents pre-ignition which is very bad for your engine H-D or otherwise...it does not make it produce more power, that's where the btu conversions come into play and how well your engine converts heat and combustion to power.
#5 - 10% ehtanol blends are approved for use in anything street legal, but YES ethanol and rubber do not mix...note your older lawn mower/weed eater fuel lines, they will dry out and deteriorate.
#6 - The food vs. fuel thing is a bunch of BS! The corn grown to produce ethanol is corn that would be otherwise used for ANIMAL feed stock, not the corn you eat at the table, which is all "sweet" corn produecd for human consumption only. During the production of ethanol, the starch in the corn is converted to sugars, which are then fermented to alcohol...the rest of the product is dried and put right back in the animal food chain in the form of dried distillers grains (DDGS), which is a high protein feed.
#7 - Ethanol will actually increase the HP your engine generates, not decrease it. (See #4 heat conversion) My cage (2011 Chevy truck), which is flex fuel makes more hp & torque running on E85...says is right in the owners manual. My mileage is worse, but I can feel the power gain & it's much cheaper here, so economically E85 is more efficient to run in my truck. There is no visible carbon in the tail pipe whatsoever and it smells great. I had a 2008 which I drove for 36,000 using nothing but E85.
I'm not pulling some kind of pro-ethanol bs...just stating the FACTS. I work at an ethanol plant, and I also worked at a refinery for 10 years so I know both sides of both industries from a technical, economic and environmental standpoint. IF petroleum companies did not use ethanol to blend into their fuels, they would have to produce more aromatics to blend in, which is an extremely expensive and time consuming process. Gas prices at the pump would be in the $5.00+ range if that process was currently used. Ethanol is used rather than aromatics because of the environmental impacts of aromatics...ever heard of Benzene?
Also, try to leave a gallon of 10% blended gas on the shelf for a month, and look at how phase separation acts.
Also, talk to people owning boats, and tell them how lovely is ethanol in the gas for them.
Again, plenty of information, with nice videos too, on the net.