does this make sense about tuner??
Thread Starter
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Tourer
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 415
Likes: 2
From: southampton,uk
does this make sense about tuner??
Ive done a stage 1 (filter and pipes) and currently have xieds fitted but was thinking about getting a tuner. Ive looked at the micro tuner by fuelmoto as its a good price, then i was told that i prob wont see any improvement as that tuner only adjusts fuel and not timing so same as xieds?? i contacted fuelmoto and asked them and got reply that it would make a difference as xieds only adjust the AFR upto cruising speed and the tuner will adjust across whole rpm range???
Any comments please as confuses me lol
Any comments please as confuses me lol
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,664
Likes: 184
From: Indiana, USA
Not sure about the xieds or micro tuner, why not get a tuner like the Power Commander so you can modify timing? You don't say what year the bike is but I run both a USB 3 and the 5 and have had excellent results
Thread Starter
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Tourer
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 415
Likes: 2
From: southampton,uk
it's a 2012 iron, I was tempted by the micro tuner by the price, the pcv is more money
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,218
Likes: 827
From: Reston, Va
PC3 doesn't replace the whole program on the ECM. It modifies the signal coming off of the ECM. As part of the hook up sequence, you disconnect the 02 sensors and them plug the PC3 between the ECM and the rest of the ignition system.
I have been looking at the Power Vision which, if I understand correctly, replaces the whole tune on the ECM. There is nothing between the ECM and the rest of the ignition system and there is no need to disconnect the 02 sensors which can cause pesky problems with diagnostic codes.
Again, if I'm not mistaken, this is the same method that the Dyno-Tune and SEPST use. Change the program on the ECM instead of messing with the 02 sensors or modifying the signal from the ECM.
Or I might be wrong on all of this...
I have been looking at the Power Vision which, if I understand correctly, replaces the whole tune on the ECM. There is nothing between the ECM and the rest of the ignition system and there is no need to disconnect the 02 sensors which can cause pesky problems with diagnostic codes.
Again, if I'm not mistaken, this is the same method that the Dyno-Tune and SEPST use. Change the program on the ECM instead of messing with the 02 sensors or modifying the signal from the ECM.
Or I might be wrong on all of this...
Ive done a stage 1 (filter and pipes) and currently have xieds fitted but was thinking about getting a tuner. Ive looked at the micro tuner by fuelmoto as its a good price, then i was told that i prob wont see any improvement as that tuner only adjusts fuel and not timing so same as xieds?? i contacted fuelmoto and asked them and got reply that it would make a difference as xieds only adjust the AFR upto cruising speed and the tuner will adjust across whole rpm range???
Any comments please as confuses me lol
Any comments please as confuses me lol
Less than 10% of your riding is in open loop where the XiED's have an indirect change to the AFR via Long Term Fuel Trim (LTFT).
The open loop is already rich enough on the stock from HD Map, so the difference in the LTFT that the XIED's provide is not something you will notice in the seat of your pants.
However, Fuelmoto is partly correct, the micro tuner will allow you to change the AFR directly in the open loop. Again, not something you will notice in the seat of your pants.
The EPA does not make HD tune the bikes too lean in open loop...only in closed loop.
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DKCustomProducts.com
DKCustomProducts.com
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,218
Likes: 827
From: Reston, Va
90+% of your riding is in closed loop where the XiED's have a direct change to the AFR.
Less than 10% of your riding is in open loop where the XiED's have an indirect change to the AFR via Long Term Fuel Trim (LTFT).
The open loop is already rich enough on the stock from HD Map, so the difference in the LTFT that the XIED's provide is not something you will notice in the seat of your pants.
However, Fuelmoto is partly correct, the micro tuner will allow you to change the AFR directly in the open loop. Again, not something you will notice in the seat of your pants.
The EPA does not make HD tune the bikes too lean in open loop...only in closed loop.
Less than 10% of your riding is in open loop where the XiED's have an indirect change to the AFR via Long Term Fuel Trim (LTFT).
The open loop is already rich enough on the stock from HD Map, so the difference in the LTFT that the XIED's provide is not something you will notice in the seat of your pants.
However, Fuelmoto is partly correct, the micro tuner will allow you to change the AFR directly in the open loop. Again, not something you will notice in the seat of your pants.
The EPA does not make HD tune the bikes too lean in open loop...only in closed loop.
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Road Warrior
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 43
From: In the foothills of southwestern NC - US of A
The below is about the easiest to understand explanation I have found, taken from:
http://www.baggersmag.com/tech/0906_...s/viewall.html
http://www.baggersmag.com/tech/0906_...s/viewall.html
Open-Loop Systems
We already know that the factory has used two major designs of EFI systems: throttle position sensor (1995-2001) and MAP sensor (2001-up). However, there is another major difference in how an EFI system operates: open loop (fixed map) and closed loop (variable map). An open-loop system samples data from the engine sensors, which points to a given location in the ECM's configuration map. Each map location contains fuel-injector pulse width and ignition-advance data for a certain set of sensor parameters. A change in sensor inputs points to a different location in the ECM's map, resulting in different injector pulse width and ignition-advance values. All factory EFI systems through 2005 are fixed open-loop systems.
We already know that the factory has used two major designs of EFI systems: throttle position sensor (1995-2001) and MAP sensor (2001-up). However, there is another major difference in how an EFI system operates: open loop (fixed map) and closed loop (variable map). An open-loop system samples data from the engine sensors, which points to a given location in the ECM's configuration map. Each map location contains fuel-injector pulse width and ignition-advance data for a certain set of sensor parameters. A change in sensor inputs points to a different location in the ECM's map, resulting in different injector pulse width and ignition-advance values. All factory EFI systems through 2005 are fixed open-loop systems.
An open-loop system works well when an engine is in relatively stock condition and the fixed map in the ECM contains values for the range of sensor inputs. But when an engine is modified, even slightly, it flows more air and requires more fuel to maintain the precise air/fuel ratio for optimum power. In this case, an open-loop system stumbles severely because sensor values fall outside the map parameters.
Closed-Loop Systems
Beginning in 2006, some Harley EFI models shipped with a closed-loop (variable map) system, and from 2007-up, all models have closed loop. A closed-loop system uses inputs from the engine sensors to point to a relative starting point in the ECM's configuration map for fuel and ignition advance. This system also uses a narrow-band oxygen sensor (O2 sensor) plumbed into each exhaust header. The oxygen sensors monitor exhaust gases for rich and lean conditions. Once the engine is up to operating temperature, the ECM adds oxygen sensor data to the relative starting point in the configuration map to arrive at a final map location for fuel-injector pulse width and ignition advance values.
Closed-Loop Systems
Beginning in 2006, some Harley EFI models shipped with a closed-loop (variable map) system, and from 2007-up, all models have closed loop. A closed-loop system uses inputs from the engine sensors to point to a relative starting point in the ECM's configuration map for fuel and ignition advance. This system also uses a narrow-band oxygen sensor (O2 sensor) plumbed into each exhaust header. The oxygen sensors monitor exhaust gases for rich and lean conditions. Once the engine is up to operating temperature, the ECM adds oxygen sensor data to the relative starting point in the configuration map to arrive at a final map location for fuel-injector pulse width and ignition advance values.
Since a closed-loop system provides real-time exhaust-gas monitoring, more precise fuel and ignition advance curves are achieved. But even the factory's closed-loop system has limitations. For example, the factory closed-loop system uses narrow band O2 sensors, which means that the fuel ratio can be varied only over a narrow band or range. For improved performance, some aftermarket manufacturers offer EFI systems with wide-band O2 sensors, which are better able to handle the increased range of air/fuel ratios required by highly modified engines. Zipper's ThunderMax is such a system.
=8^)
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,664
Likes: 184
From: Indiana, USA
"Open Loop" - Receives information from EngineManagement System (O2)
"Closed Loop" - Receives information from EngineManagement System (O2) and adjusts fuel map accordingly.
Unfortunately the HD closed loop system still uses narrow band o2 sensors and therefore only makes small adjustments in a small percentage of the operating window. To make broad changes as required with intake, exhaust, valve timing, and compression changes requires a wide band O2 sensor in closed loop
I run the PCV on my '13 FLHTK and do not have the O2 sensors plugged into the Stock Engine Management System. My stock fuel and timing maps are altered by a "Piggy Back" device that adds or takes away timing and fuel from the stock map. This works well for me as I have control over the system and can make changes to timing and fuel with nothing more than my laptop and a USB cable. Should I get to the point that I do not feel that i have ideal settings I have 2 options, 1) take it to a tuner and let him dyno the bike and make the necessary adjustments per his readings from his O2 sensors. 2) Add the Dynojet Power Commander Autotune for less than $300 which comes with wide band O2 sensors and run my "Piggy Back' device in "Closed Loop" monitoring and controlling my AFR through auto map adjustments while the Stock MAps are left untouched.
"Closed Loop" - Receives information from EngineManagement System (O2) and adjusts fuel map accordingly.
Unfortunately the HD closed loop system still uses narrow band o2 sensors and therefore only makes small adjustments in a small percentage of the operating window. To make broad changes as required with intake, exhaust, valve timing, and compression changes requires a wide band O2 sensor in closed loop
I run the PCV on my '13 FLHTK and do not have the O2 sensors plugged into the Stock Engine Management System. My stock fuel and timing maps are altered by a "Piggy Back" device that adds or takes away timing and fuel from the stock map. This works well for me as I have control over the system and can make changes to timing and fuel with nothing more than my laptop and a USB cable. Should I get to the point that I do not feel that i have ideal settings I have 2 options, 1) take it to a tuner and let him dyno the bike and make the necessary adjustments per his readings from his O2 sensors. 2) Add the Dynojet Power Commander Autotune for less than $300 which comes with wide band O2 sensors and run my "Piggy Back' device in "Closed Loop" monitoring and controlling my AFR through auto map adjustments while the Stock MAps are left untouched.
Current (07 and up) HD EFI systems use a combination of open and closed loop.
Closed loop is where there is a map of what the air fuel ration (AFR) is for certain RPM, speed and gear. This map of the AFR is adjusted based on input from the o2 sensors.
Closed loop is where 90+ percent of all riding is done. (approximately 40% throttle and less)
Closed loop is where the EPA has mandated that HD set the AFR very lean, still able to run the engine, but at a much compromised performance level.
Open loop is a fixed map for the AFR. It is much richer. It is only in affect when twisting the throttle more than 40-50%. Because this is a relatively small % of the riding time the EPA has not mandated that it be super lean. The AFR in open loop is in the 13.8-12.5:1 area.
Open loop is not adjusted real time by the o2 sensors. However, the ECM has what is called and "adaptive fuel value action" or "adaptive learning", so when the closed loop is constantly richened by o2 sensor input, it also adjusts the Long Term Fuel Trims (LTFT) in the open loop, making it richer also.
There is much more to the EFI system than above...but this is a general idea in how open and closed loop work in the current HD EFI systems.
For more in depth info, check out this thread-
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/sport...age-1-a-3.html
Last edited by DK Custom; Feb 5, 2013 at 01:12 PM.