Here's a couple of threads/links that have a wealth of information on the subject-

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/sport...age-1-a-3.html

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/sport...out-tuner.html

 

Hey DK, I edited my post before yours...do me a bit of a favor and check that over...see if that jives with what you know. Pretty sure I covered it.

 

There is no debate! First off, I am nowhere near an eliteist nor defensive but you must agree that facts are facts. Fact: XiED's tune NOTHING and their ONLY FUNCTION and PURPOSE is to trick the engines ECM into believing that there is a super lean condition present which precipitates more fuel. Furthermore, XiED's do NOT have any means to change or affect engine timing which is critical for proper tuning as witnessed in todays variable timing engines.

It's as obvious as the nose on my face that the two entities are miles apart; one is an inexpensive [which is debateable considering the actual cost of connectors, resistors and some short lengths of wire/shrink tube] way of adding fuel to your air/fuel ratio to lessen the factory lean condition, the other is a more expensive way to ELIMINATE the factory lean condition while also providing about as close as you can get without getting on a DYNO the best performance and reliability your engine can put out. So one guy spends $100 on his engine in the hopes that it runs a little better and a little cooler while the other spends $500 on his engine to make it run ALOT better and ALOT COOLER with smooother and quicker acceleration with no deceleration pops, with further provisions to log data that can be modify into new MAPS to try down the road at one's leisure, mount the tuner to display real time data [Power Vision, Power Commander X...], re-flash the ECM without a pc, etc, etc, etc...

What is there to not understand about the differences between the two and the total advantage the tuner gives? You mean to tell me that there's no particular reason a tuner costs 3 to 4 times the amount that the XiED's do? And the difference between a properly tuned engine and an XiED tuned ["tuned" being a misnomer in this case] engine is marginal and probably not noticeable? Put the crack pipe down dude!

The way I see it, the guy who spends the $100 is like the guy who buys a Mustang then adds a cold air intake, a SS catback system, and one of those intake inserts with the fins that are supposed to swirl the air increasing velocity, who then spins his tires at lights to impress chicks with that infamous Mustang exhaust note, while the $500 guy is the one who buys the same Mustang and the same intake & exhaust but instead of the finned intake thingie he goes with a performance chip that not only gives him another 15-20 horsepower but the added benefits of a cleaner burning engine with smoother and quicker acceleration. Will both guys get down the road? Sure! But the guy with the chip can rest assured that, although his wallet is just a little thinner than the other guys, he knows that his engine is providing him with the highest level of performance and reliability possible without spending even more on ie., bore and stroke or adding NOS, a turbo, or supercharger.

Look, there is nothing eliteist about commenting on and pointing out the differences between products like XiED's and a tuner, and those who can't seem to grasp and admit to the proven shortcomings, differences, and advantages between the two are the only ones getting their panties twisted in a wad here and elsewhere.

=8^)

 

Haha........hey Robo........dont ya just love when someone writes a 1000 word dissertation for the sole purpose of proving your point? .........too funny.

 

ROBO you state that you run Xied's and a Tuner, this confuses me. If the Xied's are to trick the"Lean" ECM to add more fuel then wouldn't it be tricking the tuner to add more fuel? and if so then I would think that you would be eliminating a function that the tuner it self is fully capable of performing on its own? seems like a waste of money or is there an advantage to this?

 

FYI, I'm not, there seems to be quite some throw around of the "stage 1 upgrade" which I wish would get stifled, however, with those that are less mechanical it will be always be discussed, which is fine by me, because that is more people that become interested in cycling.

I don't disagree at all with the "proper" way of achieving positive results, however, irregardless of cost, the Xieds perform the function that is intended which is to allow the system to adjust for a leaner condition by having it add more fuel. Which when one performs an A/C and exhaust upgrade, a leaner condition will present itself which for most here, will satisfy the A/F ratio to a more "safe" level.

Telling me the benefits of a tuner is like preaching to the choir. Been doing this stuff a long time. However, my first comment on why Xieds work here, is because the closed/open loop "hybrid - if you will" nature of our ECM. if we were only open, Xieds would be a joke.

Most things a tuner will do, the majority of the new found hobbyists here will never partake in. For those of us that have been around the block for 30-40yrs...now that's a different story.

 

Glad I'm not the only one that hates this practice.

I could pick this post apart, but I'm not. I'm not just focusing on this one line but I figured I didn't need to quote the whole post here and add to the length of this thread.

The argument you made was that Xieds are not a Stage 1 build item. We were never talking about what makes a tuner better or whether or not you will get a better solution with a tuner over Xieds.

Stage 1 builds deal with adding fuel...not timing. At that stage, the difference between the result you get with Xieds and the result you get with a Dyno Tune are probably 1 hp...if that. That is an amount so small that you won't notice it in your seat.

You make a lot of claims, that Xieds will not eliminate the factory lean condition and that a bike with a stage 1 tune will run smoother and cleaner. All of these are false. Time and again we have seen those here who have added Xieds to their bikes and the symptoms of a lean condition disappear. I have smog tests from my car that show once tuned it ran dirtier because it was richer after the tune than compared to stock.

I think the funniest part of your whole rant is that you're talking to me like I don't know the difference...

...and yet I'm the guy with just pipes and a header running a PowerVision with the AutoTune Pro with Wide Band O2s and have both the stock Narrow Band O2s and the Wide Bands permanantly installed in my pipes at all times for tuning purposes. I have an $800 tuning solution for a Stage 1 build but I don't understand the value of a tuner over Xieds. Right. Sure.

 

And you are right. My appologies if I didn't make this clear. I do not own, nor have I ever owned, Xieds. I like to tune with a tuner and do not use spoofers of any kind (Xieds, PowerCommander, Fuelpak, etc). I like tuners that actually let you get into the tables in the ECM and make the changes there.

However, having a decent grasp of how the ECM functions, I understand that if you make the reading from the O2s look like they are leaner than what they actually are the ECM will add fuel and "correct" the factory lean condition. Is it the ideal solution? No. Will it give you your best performance? No. But it's going to be close...so close I doubt you would be able to tell a difference between a bike with Xieds and a bike with a dyno tune assuming both are Stage 1 bikes.

Beyond Stage 1, the Xieds cannot be used as you need more robust tuning for Stage 2, 3 and beyond mods.

 

Sorry for getting up your dander Robo and no disrespect intended, but I take acception to your "Stage 1" definition. The common knowledge is that a "Stage 1" upgrade involves the addition of a free flowing exhaust, a free flowing intake, and a properly tuned ECM to take advantage of this new breathing/farting capacity. The fact remains though, that increased fuel is only part of the equation and is in and of itself not the third determining factor but one of numerous determining factors of this "Stage 1" definition. To prove this point, tell me/answer me this; what good is the simple addition of fuel without the ability of the ECM to accomodate new timing curves/data that were previously absent/unobtainable before the correct MAP reflash, to provide optimum timing advance/retard values throughout the 0 to WOT RPM band?

"...symptoms of a lean condition..." Lemme' tell you something about observing a lean condition. Currently, I maintain 125hp Cleaver Brooks steam boilers that run on #2 and gas, and I get to use some pretty accurate and sophisticated machines to set up these boilers so they run at top efficiency/performance levels. Sure it's not actually "performing" in the sense of speed on the street, but it needs to run as cleanly as possible, to avoid carbon/soot buildup inside the tubes, which if allowed to build up on these surfaces, would act as insulation, requiring more fuel to transfer heat to the water that surrounds these tubes. Not to mention the EPA getting pissed off at me for pumping excess carbons into the atmosphere that we all breathe. On the flipside, if the burner is running too lean, I risk taking/burning out the chamber. Anyway, many times I have observed these boilers running, and even though the exaust was clear, the flame was the proper color, and the insides of the tubes at the time were of the correct color, the calibrated machines said no F'ing way when the exhaust was sampled. Fuel and or air values were then changed to proper levels. The point I'm getting at here is that just like a boiler tube, a casual observation of a spark plug color is not always indicitive of the actual condition of a firing cylinder; the ONLY indication of correct air/fuel ratio and proper combustion is a breath test/instrument testing.

Numerous times in the past I have stated that yes, the XiED's help lessen the factory lean condition and help provide cooler than factory engine and exhaust temps. If I am wrong please show me where it is documented that they completely eliminate the factory lean condition. And reread my words, because nowhere have I ever mentioned that a tuner helps an engine to run "cleaner" - it helps it perform better, so your smog example is moot.

I 'dunno man...in the end what I do know is this...after a reflash via Power Vision, my engine and exhaust run noticeably cooler, my bikes acceleration is quicker and smoother, and it decelerates like an electric motor controlled by a rheostat. It's all good and I feel this in the seat of my pants. And you have an even better setup than me, with the addition of the Auto Tune Pro and additional 0˛ wideband sensors...'dunno why we spent all that money when we could've only spent a hundred bucks...

Meh.

Well, 'no sense in continuing since I'm just a dumbass with a great running bike, and again, 'sorry to have gotten your panties in a twist - good thing it's only the internet...hahahahahaha

=8^)

 

LOL...never had my panties in a twist...

Just the primary focus on the stage 1 is fueling issues. As with anything else there are good ways and bad ways to accomplish this. Xieds are far from the best way, but never-the-less are a way of doing things. It's up to each individual to decide for themselves what the value of each option is to them.

You and I are those that, when it comes to engine management, don't cut corners. To us, knowing how these things work, we saw the value in a tuner. Others who do not share our knowledge, may not.

As for Xieds, I got an idea. If anyone has a spare set laying around, send them my way (you'll get them back...) and I'll reload my stock tune onto my bike. Then I'll ride around and after 100 miles I'll go through my tuning loop while scanning the bike and record what's going on with the ECM. Then I'll install the Xieds and do the same thing. Then I'll load on my tune and do the same thing.

After that's done, I'll post the results and we can see the difference and just how close Xieds come to eliminating the factory lean condition. Only differences will be the tunes and Xieds. I'll even try to get weather conditions equal.