I think we're pretty much arguing/discussing the same point. I don't recall anyone here saying it eliminated the MOCO lean condition. As well as, no one has stated that the Xieds were in any way shape or form a suitable replacement for a tuner.

My point with the Xieds is purely from the standpoint of, if you're sticking with (oh god), "stage 1" and you really don't give a **** about really tuning in the LTFT/STFT, VE's, etc, then the harm that could be imposed over time with an open exhaust, open a/c can be reduced by running Xieds.

Now for those of us that are inquisitive, DIRFTers and want to get every little perk out of everything, like myself, then we opt for tuners. That doesn't mean the guy that goes the Xied route is necessarily wrong, just as long as he/she knows what their goal with their scoot is and the limits of what the Xied can actually do/or not. I don't know the guys at Nightrider (or whatever the name is) but it could be marketing that keeps them from full disclosure of what the Xieds cannot do, could be they really don't know, or they just don't post all that because the guy that's getting the Xieds knows he doesn't want all the options and "confusion" of a tuner.

 

[squinting my eyes] I coulda' sworn I 'seen some twisted panties but my eyes ain't as good as they used to be, BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. In any event, Robo you the man!! I think the above is a great idea...then we can take that information and, uhhh...er, take that information and ummm...well...I think I'm just gonna' STFU about this for now as I sure as hell hi-jacked the **** outta' this thread enough...sorry ib5150, HA!

=8^)

 

K, my head is spinning and I just don't have the energy to go back and find the primer to my tuner rant, not like it'll matter now anyway, LOL. Anyway, I appreciate your input and response above, which made alot of sense.

=8^)

 

No doubt you did see some...just weren't mine.

And it's not that much of a hijack, all deals with open and closed loops.

 

Hey man, that's a great idea. PM me what bike you want them for (year and model).

I have actually already done this on a dyno....but did not record it...just did it for my own curiosity. (it was before so many people were doubting the efficacy of the XiED family of products)

It was done on a 2009 883 sporty with X14iED's, open pipes and open a/c. I ran thru the gears (on a dyno) varying the throttle between 10-50%. The sniffers showed the AFR hovering between 13.9:1 and 14.0:1.

When I went to WOT it dropped down to 12.5:1, showing that the adaptive learning of the ECM because of the X14iED's had adjusted the LTFT.

That is a huge improvement over stock. This is a bike that come stock at 14.6:1, and would have been even leaner because of the open pipes and A/C.

We are going to be renting the dyno again for the entire day in about a month, and one the things we will be doing is the same as described above, but this time we will record it and post the results.

btw, I like how you edited your info into the graphic form!

Another thought: The map that come stock on the bike has been otimized over thousands upon thousands of hours of development by HD. It is a good map (and good timing) with the exception of being leaned out for the EPA. The XiED family of products preserves that map, it simply richens it up in the areas that HD wishes they could.

So many times people get tuners and start changing the cells and end up with a far WORSE tune than if they preserved the HD Map and simply richened it up with an XiED product.

That is Not to say that a tuner, used properly, won't give a better tune. It will, but for 300-800% more money, at best it gives only a 20% improvement, and sometimes worse.

We have 4 "shop" bikes. 1 carbed, one with X14iED's, one with a PCV and a "new-to-me" that is still stock but will be getting a tuner (have not decided which one yet, but probably a PV). The two EFI bikes that don't have an XiED product are both more than Stage 1.

Interesting discussion for sure.

 

DrewBone, I don't consider it a "hi-jack" when a poster disagrees with another post and explains their feelings on a subject that was raised, ROBO already explained what the'Open and Closed loop' was, very well I might add. The rest of the posts on the thread was like an added benefit, it is not every day you get to hear/read two or three well educated people discuss a topic it is obvious they understand very well and disagree with the one another but in the end there was actually no disagreement in the first place But it made for a good read

 

Thanks man. 'Truth be told, Mr. Robo's got more of a handle on this topic than I do but I'm learning on a daily basis...and that's just one of the great things about this fourm; the other is the great camaraderie and friendships that form from these discussions between the sometimes very different and distinct personalities, that ultimately result in a comfortable familiarity between each, almost to the point that we know what each other is thinking or about to say. 'Pretty kewl actually...that said, thanks for the kind words, ride safe, and see you around...

=8^)

 

A good debate is always a good thing as good things can come of it. I appreciate Drew challenging what I had to say as it makes me sharper as I do my research to solidify my opinion. I have a better grasp on this because of his opposition than I did before. In the end, he and I agree more than we disagree as we both feel that, even with only a Stage 1 setup, a proper tuner is the best choice for your ECM solution. Glad you enjoyed the read 5150 and thank you for the compliments. Drew, I'm still learning man, but thank you for the compliment. I'm lucky in that I have a friend that use to work for GM and his job was to program the Delphi system. Yea, he wrote the code in the ECM to get it to do what it does. Man is a friggen genius when it comes to this stuff. I know about 1/25 of what he does when I'm having a good day. LOL

 

Hi,

Great reading, anymore advancement on the testing on the dyno with AFR?

Thanks
Mirrmu

 

On the sportster the stock tune is fine. My oil temps with stock tune and dino oil never get above 207F and thats when temps are over 100.

The few guys I know that use a tuner that uses the O2 sensor still use an Xied. The reason bieng is because if the tuner uses the O2 sensor its an EPA compliant street legal tune. In the closed loop the AFR will be the same as stock tune.

The best stage 1 bikes I have seen are the Harley parts stage 1 with the Xied. Im talking on the streets best results. An 883 run with it shows a noticeable improvement over a stock bike. Most people do not realize a tuner still runs stock AFRs unless there is some kind of O2 eliminator on it or it is not street legal.

Most the tuners people spend big bucks on to better the closed loop operation are doing nothing but paying big bucks to run stock AFRs. But it makes them feel good and gives them something to talk about.