I had the opportunity to run my bike on a dyno this past weekend, figured it would be interesting to see what my bike was putting out. No tuning, just 3 pulls for $40.

The bike is a '09 Dyna, SE 103" kit, Wood TW555 cams, WFOLarry Stage 1 heads w/ stock sized valves and .030 head gaskets, stock throttle body, D&D Fatcat exhaust, built and tuned by me with a Thundermax (base map 786). Gearing is 30t/68t.

The bike runs great and pulls hard. I've run several autotune sessions, and pulled 2 degrees of timing out between 2800 and 4800 because I was getting some pinging on throttle roll on.

I really have nothing to complain about because I know its just numbers, but I was expecting to be about 10hp/10tq more than I have based on similar builds I've seen. The bike was dyno'd in 5th gear.

Is there anything I should be looking for that's holding me back? Is it all in the tune?

 

what we see is there are two (2) things holding you back ....

stock size valves ...(why would you do head work and not upgrade the valve size) ??
and the Thundermax ....(this system controls the AFR's really well , but their timing tables are not right)

the dip in your curve (iam sure the tuner told you it was the pipe ) ..it is not ...but the timing at that throttle position ...

we have tuned with this system for years and found that the rate of retarding the timing (the drop in the slope from cruz range to 35-40 % is way the hell off in their mapping ) ...it needs to be faster ...not so long and gradual and even needs to be move to the right more ....then the bottom of this slope is not retarded enough ...

with all their maps ...the roll on (has seen in your dyno chart...) just sucks !!! because of the timing....

i will dig up a dyno run chart we have ....shows a before and after run ...where my tune jumped straight up ..(5 gear) ...and the tuner's run actually dipped ...and i was only 4 hp/tq low of his tune...(this was done at Starr Racing ) ...where mine was done on the butt dyno and he had a Dynometer 250i ...he used my map and just made his changes to it ....

the AFR'S where not changed....only change was to the timing tables ...as was the reason for taking for the run ...
this was my wifes 07'softail deluxe with 103 stock flat tops stock heads and upgraded 50mm throttle body ...259 cams with +4 degree crank gear ...027" head gasket ...thunderheader

looking for the thundermax map that was use for this run....understand this was done about 5 years ago ....

 

Thanks for the reply--yeah, I should have gone bigger on the valves. I was already over my budget, and I thought I could get to my goals with stock valves. Still do.

If I had to pick a tuner again, I think I'd skip the Thundermax and go with a Powervision. But I'm committed to the Tmax for now, can't afford a swap.

Really I need a professional tuner, but I'm having a hard time finding someone locally who's familiar with the Tmax. Found a few that would require a short road trip, and eventually I think I'm going to need to do that.

As far as where I'm at now, here's a couple screen shots of my timing. I've adjusted it in the 'timing vs. TPS' settings. So are you saying I should try more retard faster in the curve? I've pulled -2 degrees out of the bottom of the slope from about 2500 to about 4800 rpm to try to help with some pinging on heavy throttle roll on and under load, which helped a little, but didn't resolve it entirely.





I appreciate any guidance, obviously I don't quite know what I'm doing, just trying to make some improvements until I can get the bike to a pro tuner.

 

let me first point out that I don't know squat about the TMAX product and although I agree with the fact that you're lacking in HP and TQ (according to that chart) I don't agree with a couple of things being said here. Compared to what you've done to the bike (especially the components used) and what that chart shows, I would expect more too but also see # 3 below.

1. the info provided as stated is about 5 years old. Lots of things have changed with TMAX with their calibrations and functionality of the product over the past 5 years and both being hugely improved is the major improvement including timing.
2. The "tuner" mentioned. who's to say it's actually a tuner. Just because you own or know how to operate a dyno doesn't make you a tuner. That dip could very well be a pipe issue, a header issue, a valve issue, etc. any number of things. I know several guys/HD shops/Indy shops here around the Houston area that I wouldn't send a sole to because they truly do not know what they're doing in tuning although they own dynos.
3. I would put VERY LITTLE FAITH in these mobile dyno shoot-out type setups like this. Who knows the condition of these dynos, things get out of kilter hauling these things around from rally to rally all the time. Pay $40 get a couple of quick runs and you're done. BS! that gives you nothing because they have no earthly clue as to the condition of your ride or the condition of your tune/calibration when you pull up there. This is where a REAL tuner comes into play. Everything is checked and double-checked prior to tuning taking place.
4. I'm not too sure I'd put a whole lot of faith in the valve statement either. There are plenty of builds running around out there these days with good headwork, a cam, a set of pipes, and stock valve sizes that work very well.

I would make a phone call to Larry first off and find out from him what he would expect to see with his heads and your exact build. Then you can base your next steps on that. Making a short jaunt up to a reputable TMAX tuner would be your best option IMO. Every time I need my bike on a dyno, I throw it in the back of the truck and drive 4 hours one way to get it done.

 

^^ Excellent points. I'm not loosing any sleep over it, because the bike runs great. I just feel like I'm leaving something on the table. But yeah, I'm going to be taking a road trip at some point to get a real dyno tune from someone who knows what they're doing. Seems silly at this point to not spend a few more $$ and make sure its right.

 

Well , not trying to upset anyone here ...only trying to help a follow rider with some info that we know works ...not sure what info "Ultranutz" has provided other than contradicting his self the whole time ...first he dont know **** about the T-max ...but knows all bout how they have improved their maps along with the timing ....then says he would not trust a dyno tuner but tells you to bring it for one ....
i am only trying to see what good info he is trying to state here ...because if he believes the old cliché that "it's the pipe" or "its the heads" ...he still don't know "squat"....

it's the tune !!! ever see any dips in any of Jamie's maps at Fuel Moto...no ...and you never will ....
it's all in the timing ....along with the correct AFR....That's called "the tune"

what we are trying to show you is that when adding more fuel and air ...you must retard the timing "to the correct point " ...too much timing will cause the motor to run against it's self ..."losing power" ...which will cause the 'dip" in your chart...

here are a few pictures of the changes i was talking about earlier ...only use as an example ...what you need to understand is that this slope is in the curz range and WOT is a whole different area ...which you know ...is all the way to the right ...but to get to the right ...you must pass through the slope ...which must happen sooner ...and quicker ...
understand too that the bike is in the cruz range just before the WOT ...which is about 14-17% throttle ...so you want to keep as much timing as possible at that point ,at that RPM ...but to get the bike to accel as soon as you start the roll on ...you must start retarding quickly ...but not too much either ...in each table as the rpm raises ...
hard to explain here ...but if you study it a while ...i think you'll start to see the real picture ....and as you get higher rpms ...the slope should get smaller( shorter..meaning not as tall ) as you go from cruz to wot ...and back to closed throttle ...
also ...
your timing should not be the same at ..say 50% throttle at a given rpm as it is at WOT either ....as you dont want all the timing in at such a small throttle opening ...

hope this helps ...just keep studying it and soon it will start to make sense !!!
hope the best for ya !!

 

looking at your screen shots ...understand that the blue vertical line is your throttle position ...at cruz ...this position must be known ...along with the rpm ..(tape the throttle and mark it the same as the settings on the screen)....then you can + or - the small blocks to stop the pinging ...and you will know where to start the decline in the slope ...to reduce the pinging at the roll on point ..but when you do ...understand that you must make the change to the rpm tables above that one where it all starts ...as the rpm rises quickly ...

HINT ---with the cable hook up to the bike ...select one of the small blocks on the table (then it turns a light blue color) then hit the "L" key on the key board and it should bring up a small faceplate that will tell you the exact timing of that small block .. and will follow to the next small block as you scroll over ..using the left and right arrow keys ....this works in the AFR tables also ...and is listed in the instructions...just dont know if you know this helpful point ...

then when you get it close in the individual rpm table ...you can move the whole table up or down using the "Timing vs Engine Speed " ...this table is your WOT ...total timing table ...
but beware ...if you move it here ...and you have your "cruz" roll on like you want ...you will need to go back to that individual "timing vs rpm " table and move the slope back up or down the same amount you moved the total ...in order for the cruz to remain the same ....(as moving anything in this table move the WHOLE individual rpm table ...the same amount..) this is WOT only !!




ALSO...
be aware that in the "timing vs engine Temp" table ...this table is making automatic changes to all timing tables as the engine gets hotter ...we always set this table to "0" across the board ...until we get the timing were we want it ...then only may retard a few degrees at the very high temps of 320 and above ...but we try very hard not to let the engine get that hot ...
look closely at this table as the "0" is in the middle of the page ...(not the bottom) ...between the +2 and -2 degree settings ....in this table , you will see that the timing is being advanced when cold ...and starting to retard when getting hotter ...should be "0" in the normal operating range of about 180-280 degrees head temp.
dont be afraid to move or experiment with the timing tables ...as we have been very aggressive with the timing tables on High Compression motors ...because their map tables really suck !!!

 

Really appreciate the input...some of that even makes sense.

Hopefully I'll have some time to play with it this weekend. I'll spend some time studying the timing slopes, and definitely going to do the tape on the grip marking idea.

 

I realize this is an old thread, but I just ran across it. I'm very interested in your last statement "as we have been very aggressive with the timing tables on High Compression motors ...because their map tables really suck !!!".

I have a 2010 Wide Glide with 11:1 CR, Tman Heads, 107", D&D Borzilla Exhaust, Tmax ECM using Map 791, Woods 9b Cam, ccp hot 205psi front and rear, 30T transmission pulley. It dynoed at 115hp/111tq SAE which seems low for the build. I am getting ready to try your timing suggestions to get rid of an initial WOT roll-on dip, but was wondering about your note on getting aggressive with the timing. Aggressive usually means advancing the timing, but most of your advice has been about retarding it. What is your advice on where to start -- should I advance WOT Tmax timing from the base map or retard it? Also -- how much to start with -- is 5 deg too much? I'm not doing this on a dyno, but only using the dyno as a "final check", so I'd like to get close before paying for another dyno hp/tq and AFR run. The dyno is a late model Dynojet with the latest eddy current technology, and the dyno operator is experienced, but not experienced with Tmax -- I'm simply using him to do the pulls and comment/give advice on the hp/tq curves and AFR readings ($50 versus $500 for a typical full tune).

Thanks for any advice you can give,
Dennis

 

You really want to back the WOT timing off.. At that CR somewhere between 25 to 28 total advance would be good.. If the low end sucks I'd switch the pipe.. Zillas flow too much for a 107 and cause what I call over exhausting..