DYNOJET: TT AT vs PV Basic AT
Thread Starter
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Road Master
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 858
Likes: 140
From: USA
So Oleboy, did we answer your question or does it need clearing up? After all this crap, lost track of it?
Teardrop,
Subscribe to this thread:
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/the-d...ng-basics.html
It should be well worth your time. Steve Cole is top notch.
Teardrop,
Subscribe to this thread:
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/the-d...ng-basics.html
It should be well worth your time. Steve Cole is top notch.
I've pretty much just given up. I don't know a whole lot about mapping VE tables and even less about tuning a bike. I'm an Accountant.
My understanding of mapping the tables is you set the whole AFR table to a target AFR. (14.6 if using narrow bands) and (13.0 if using wide bands). You run the bike (regardless of whether it is a stage one or stage four) through all the different MAP or TP settings at all of the the different RPMs while you adjust the VE table table figures for each cylinder until you achieve the target AFR (14.6 or 13.0) at the 02 sensors in the exhaust pipes. Once that is done, the VE for each cylinder is set. After that, I suppose you could change the figures in the AFR table to whatever figures you like or toss the 02 sensors altogether and the bike would run at (or very close to) the AFRs that you set in the AFR table. I'm not sure it matters which sensor (narrow or wide) band you use to do the VE mapping as long as the samples that each 02 sensor receive in the mapping process are sufficient to get good readings in order to accurately map the VE tables.
All the product literature that I have read has one thing in common. They all state that mapping the VE tables is the most important process of tuning. It seems we have somehow gone from that to using a device to control and adjust the VE table as we ride. I just wonder what is wrong with doing the procedure as I outlined above and not using a device to control and adjust VE as I ride. If the VE tables are mapped accurately as above, why would I need a device to control the ARF as I ride?
Like I said, this is just my simple understanding. It's probably wrong. The reason I asked for some clarification and the question initially.
Thanks.
Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 163
Likes: 10
From: Wherever I put my helmet
If the VE tables are accurately mapped, along with the other tables, you should be fine, especially with a stock bike or a bike with basically a pipe and or air cleaner change. But even a stock bike can benefit from a proper tune, a modified bike even more so. The factory tune is simply a balance between having a bike that's runs ok but meets EPA requirements which is not always the best for you and your engine. Your second paragraph is fairly correct. However, keep in mind that if you get rid of the O2's, the AFR map needs to have the closed loop areas changed to run with the appropriate AFR's instead of relying on the input from the sensors. Harleys were running just fine without O2's prior to 2006.
Give this a read. http://www.drdyno.com/AIM_2010-07.html May help. Follow the link to the second portion as well. You might want to follow the thread I pointed Teardrop to. It should be a good thread with a lot of true and factual information.
As to the original question, it all comes down to the methods used. That is why the changes can be drastic or not so drastic.
Give this a read. http://www.drdyno.com/AIM_2010-07.html May help. Follow the link to the second portion as well. You might want to follow the thread I pointed Teardrop to. It should be a good thread with a lot of true and factual information.
As to the original question, it all comes down to the methods used. That is why the changes can be drastic or not so drastic.
Last edited by Tsani; Jul 6, 2016 at 11:33 PM.
Thread Starter
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Road Master
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 858
Likes: 140
From: USA
Here is a link:
https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/downloads/tts_tuning.pdf
I hope it helps you.
Thread Starter
|
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 858
Likes: 140
From: USA
If the VE tables are accurately mapped, along with the other tables, you should be fine, especially with a stock bike or a bike with basically a pipe and or air cleaner change. But even a stock bike can benefit from a proper tune, a modified bike even more so. The factory tune is simply a balance between having a bike that's runs ok but meets EPA requirements which is not always the best for you and your engine. Your second paragraph is fairly correct. However, keep in mind that if you get rid of the O2's, the AFR map needs to have the closed loop areas changed to run with the appropriate AFR's instead of relying on the input from the sensors. Harleys were running just fine without O2's prior to 2006.
Give this a read. http://www.drdyno.com/AIM_2010-07.html May help. Follow the link to the second portion as well. You might want to follow the thread I pointed Teardrop to. It should be a good thread with a lot of true and factual information.
As to the original question, it all comes down to the methods used. That is why the changes can be drastic or not so drastic.
Give this a read. http://www.drdyno.com/AIM_2010-07.html May help. Follow the link to the second portion as well. You might want to follow the thread I pointed Teardrop to. It should be a good thread with a lot of true and factual information.
As to the original question, it all comes down to the methods used. That is why the changes can be drastic or not so drastic.
Both of my builds were tuned on a dyno by a professional tuner who I happen to think walks on water. My bikes run that well. I'm lucky. He is local to me, but if he wasn't, I would trailer them across the country to get them to him.
My question was more of a conceptional nature concerning auto tuning with the different devices (narrow versus wide bands).
Thanks for the link.
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
My understanding of mapping the tables is you set the whole AFR table to a target AFR. (14.6 if using narrow bands) and (13.0 if using wide bands). You run the bike (regardless of whether it is a stage one or stage four) through all the different MAP or TP settings at all of the the different RPMs while you adjust the VE table table figures for each cylinder until you achieve the target AFR (14.6 or 13.0) at the 02 sensors in the exhaust pipes. Once that is done, the VE for each cylinder is set. After that, I suppose you could change the figures in the AFR table to whatever figures you like or toss the 02 sensors altogether and the bike would run at (or very close to) the AFRs that you set in the AFR table. I'm not sure it matters which sensor (narrow or wide) band you use to do the VE mapping as long as the samples that each 02 sensor receive in the mapping process are sufficient to get good readings in order to accurately map the VE tables.
All the product literature that I have read has one thing in common. They all state that mapping the VE tables is the most important process of tuning. It seems we have somehow gone from that to using a device to control and adjust the VE table as we ride. I just wonder what is wrong with doing the procedure as I outlined above and not using a device to control and adjust VE as I ride. If the VE tables are mapped accurately as above, why would I need a device to control the ARF as I ride?
Like I said, this is just my simple understanding. It's probably wrong. The reason I asked for some clarification and the question initially.
Thanks.
Andy
Last edited by whittlebeast; Jul 7, 2016 at 06:11 AM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,368
Likes: 27
From: Australia
Oleboy have you had chance to connect AT-100 to PV and do some testing yet?
I found the megasquirt manual quite good reading on EFI basics/tuning, there all just internal combustion engines
Andy I think there is an expectation that you buy a flash tuner, load map/MLVHD or dyno tune and presto you will get 10hp or some considerable improvement
These bikes run very well off the show room floor, never been better and more reliable
I found the megasquirt manual quite good reading on EFI basics/tuning, there all just internal combustion engines
Andy I think there is an expectation that you buy a flash tuner, load map/MLVHD or dyno tune and presto you will get 10hp or some considerable improvement
These bikes run very well off the show room floor, never been better and more reliable
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
That is the world of construction and Andy is in charge of making sure they have enough 2 x 4's and nails on the job. I'm sure info from previous jobs help this, and there is no reason for a dyno.
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
Jason again brings no tuning knowledge to the table. Only a personal attack.
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Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
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Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
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From: Alorton, Illinois
You biggest problem is you are trying to be something you are not. You want to talk about your back ground like you came from tuning. You want to state how you have modeled the HD. Instead of trying to learn how it actually works yourself.
VE new has been explained to you numerous times by the guy that wrote it. You refuse to listen. You state the HD system is easy and this is the formula, but that formula didn't help you tune your sportster. I know, I know, it wasn't your fault. It was the code bust, and dyno jet fixed it. BUT you won't explain anything more. Sounds like smoke and mirrors to me.
VE new? Much more than tuning than mapping VE tables in the area a NB sensor works. This isn't tuning.
Now he want to convince us he has modeled the HD engine. What a bunch of BS. He attempted to map his wife's sportster and could never get it right.
He has proved nothing. Posting a screen shot and saying see. Doesn't do anything. Especially when everybody is saying. No, we don't see.
With all your fancy talk on any of the sites. I have yet seen a thread follow through from the beginning or middle of the tune to the end tuning with your strategies.
Look at the latest Hammer Performance sportster you talked out of a dyno tune. Wound up with a TT on it didn't it Andy?