When and Why did heat Issues Arise?
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Stellar HDF Member
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From: NC
When and Why did heat Issues Arise?
I'm curious when the heat issues developed on the big v-twin engines and why. I never heard the evo or the twin cam 88 having any. The time the 96" came around is when I heard about heat. I know the larger displacement gets, the more heat it's gonna put out, but it seemed abnormal for just a 96 ci. And I'm not even adding in the catalytic converter on the later models. Was it steel vs aluminum, tighter tolerances, etc?
And it makes me wonder why Harley went the water cooled route, when maybe they could have made an overhead cam with oil cooling(like Victory has). Riding buddy has a Vic CC and he claims no heat issues to speak of. Wouldn't that have been more efficient for heat problems, and passed EPA guide lines. I'm old school, I like air cooling better. I know, I'm pretty ignorant on these issues, so be gentle.
BTW, my 09 RKC has shut down a cylinder on a few occasions in the summer. It still puts out pretty much heat, even with the stage 1. An oil cooler would probably cure it somewhat.
And it makes me wonder why Harley went the water cooled route, when maybe they could have made an overhead cam with oil cooling(like Victory has). Riding buddy has a Vic CC and he claims no heat issues to speak of. Wouldn't that have been more efficient for heat problems, and passed EPA guide lines. I'm old school, I like air cooling better. I know, I'm pretty ignorant on these issues, so be gentle.
BTW, my 09 RKC has shut down a cylinder on a few occasions in the summer. It still puts out pretty much heat, even with the stage 1. An oil cooler would probably cure it somewhat.
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From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
EPA making them build bikes that run super lean to pass emissions standards raises heat. Liquid cooling keeps the engine from melting down at higher operating temps, doesn't always mean cooler for the rider. Perfect example is the Buell 1125r I had. Naked sportbike, liquid cooled but threw off more heat than any bike I've owned.
Oil-cooled is kinda a wasted step IMO at this point in the regulations game. To invest the money into such a system that won't get the job done as emission standards continue to stiffen would be a waste. HD is doing the right thing investing in water cooling. Eventually it's gonna be the only way I feel.
Oil-cooled is kinda a wasted step IMO at this point in the regulations game. To invest the money into such a system that won't get the job done as emission standards continue to stiffen would be a waste. HD is doing the right thing investing in water cooling. Eventually it's gonna be the only way I feel.
Last edited by Badlionsfan; Sep 18, 2014 at 08:39 AM.
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From: Phoenix '53, '88, '09 Big Twins
sitting on top of a motor is going to be hot.
my old bikes get hot...but the new bike's motor is bigger so it gets hotter.
hotter than my Pans or Evos.
precise fuel mixing makes more heat, compared to the coarse mixtures for early model bikes... and don;t think that a coarse mixture is "more faster"...my 74" panhead motors dyno in the high 30's...the 96" gets about twice the HP per cubic inch.
These bikes are properly known as air/ oil cooled- the oil carries heat from the hottest parts of the motor away to be dispersed. The twin cam sprays cooling oil at the bottoms of the pistons and the cylinder bore ( heat that would chrystalize dyno oil), oil moves around the heads and through the bearings- hot- hot- hot
why the motor design?
the "newcomers" to Harleys have a perception of "Tradition" and "Tradition" is what Harley boxes up and sells.
...or we'd all be using the Vrod motors
the best performance and emissions will always be in a liquid cooled motor- that way there is more controlled expansion/contraction and closer tolerances- more precision. ( what victory is using on your Pals bike)
air cooled motors have to be looser in the tolerances to react to temperature swings...
there are ways to deal with heat- the first is wear thick jeans
shutting down a cylinder is a brilliant way to control heat- not only is heat not produced on that stroke- but cool air is moved through the cylinder to carry away heat. the rear cylinder is disabled as that runs hotter than the front- less air flow.
AFAIK, Cadillac was the first to production with this idea on the Northstar motor- they used to advertise is could run Death Valley with no coolant.
it will only happen at idle and at road speed below 2 or 3 mph...living in Phoenix, this is a motor saver!
mike
my old bikes get hot...but the new bike's motor is bigger so it gets hotter.
hotter than my Pans or Evos.
precise fuel mixing makes more heat, compared to the coarse mixtures for early model bikes... and don;t think that a coarse mixture is "more faster"...my 74" panhead motors dyno in the high 30's...the 96" gets about twice the HP per cubic inch.
These bikes are properly known as air/ oil cooled- the oil carries heat from the hottest parts of the motor away to be dispersed. The twin cam sprays cooling oil at the bottoms of the pistons and the cylinder bore ( heat that would chrystalize dyno oil), oil moves around the heads and through the bearings- hot- hot- hot
why the motor design?
the "newcomers" to Harleys have a perception of "Tradition" and "Tradition" is what Harley boxes up and sells.
...or we'd all be using the Vrod motors
the best performance and emissions will always be in a liquid cooled motor- that way there is more controlled expansion/contraction and closer tolerances- more precision. ( what victory is using on your Pals bike)
air cooled motors have to be looser in the tolerances to react to temperature swings...
there are ways to deal with heat- the first is wear thick jeans
shutting down a cylinder is a brilliant way to control heat- not only is heat not produced on that stroke- but cool air is moved through the cylinder to carry away heat. the rear cylinder is disabled as that runs hotter than the front- less air flow.
AFAIK, Cadillac was the first to production with this idea on the Northstar motor- they used to advertise is could run Death Valley with no coolant.
it will only happen at idle and at road speed below 2 or 3 mph...living in Phoenix, this is a motor saver!
mike
Last edited by mkguitar; Sep 18, 2014 at 08:55 AM.
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Cylinder Head Temp is not indicative of high oil temps. An oil cooler's purpose is to cool oil and should only be used if oil temps are consistently too high which can only be known if you have an oil temp gauge .
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Stellar HDF Member
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Yea, that's what Al Gore would tell ya! 
Yup, looks like liquid cooling is the way now and in the future, until EPA standards tighten even more. Then it will be electric, with playing cards on the spokes to remind us of the old days.
Yup, looks like liquid cooling is the way now and in the future, until EPA standards tighten even more. Then it will be electric, with playing cards on the spokes to remind us of the old days.
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Stellar HDF Member
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From: NC
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Extreme HDF Member
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From: Phoenix '53, '88, '09 Big Twins
Like I said , they sell "Tradition".
Although the Rider who started on a Harley is a thing of the past.
Harley has failed in attracting and supporting new riders. ( we'll see how this latest in a chain of efforts will go)
We may well be the last generation of Harley Riders.
It's way too general to "blame EPA" for todays motors- both cars and trucks on the road make huge power and better MPG than the most awesome cars of the pre-Nixon EPA era. They also last much, much longer.
There was nothing built back then which will keep up with a $15 production car- and turn and stop.
And emissions are tiny.
watch old films and you'll see the roads stained by the pre-1962 road draft tubes which dumped crankcase fumes onto the road in the center of the lanes--- talk about a motorcycle hazard.
And if we were stuck with the "Freedom" to recreate the machines of old, we'd have air like India or China...and our products would not be exportable.
Given that the export market is huge for HD, I doubt that the company would easily survive a 30% reduction is market
But those who want a personal feeling of tradition can always buy an old bike- but you gotta be handy and practically you need to reach a whole new level of riding ability...I often need to adjust my carb on the fly to compensate for air density changes...and the spark timing is controlled by the rider on the left twist grip- get the timing wrong and it won't run well.
mike
Last edited by mkguitar; Sep 18, 2014 at 09:42 AM.
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I wondered why Harley didn't pursue something like the Wards fans. These can be just as effective at maintaining consistent temps as water cooling. That guy documents very well how effective they are. Do the new Limited's have fans on the radiators?
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From: Phoenix '53, '88, '09 Big Twins
air outside the motor is no replacement for coolants inside the motor- ( the wards fans are universally accepted as great- but a band-aid really).
from a rider's point of view they may actually decrease rider comfort by blowing more heat away from the motor and at the legs.
this is similar to my experiences with fairing lowers- they give me lower motor temps ( measured at the oil pan) but the removed heat in teh airstream causes a blow dryer effect on my thighs.
keeping them close to the tank helps keep the hot air moving by
mike
from a rider's point of view they may actually decrease rider comfort by blowing more heat away from the motor and at the legs.
this is similar to my experiences with fairing lowers- they give me lower motor temps ( measured at the oil pan) but the removed heat in teh airstream causes a blow dryer effect on my thighs.
keeping them close to the tank helps keep the hot air moving by
mike