Power vision
Cruiser
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 182
Likes: 13
From: Ohio
I did that but it's difficult, if not near impossible to measure those results without a dyno or a day at the drag strip. The narrow band 02's are too limited for best power production, but well within range for drivability and fuel economy tuning.
The other problem that you have with the later 103 engines using the emission cams is that they are "flat" on power right to start with. You can nail down a tune with one, then add fuel/timing clear across the load/speed range and they "feel" pretty much the same no matter where it's at, at least if you are trying to measure improvements by the "seat of your pants". Both our local dyno expert and tech at Fuel Moto told me those engines require better cams if you really want to get decent power out of them, otherwise your are up against a brick wall when it comes to full throttle tuning.
So after pissing around with data logging and custom tuning everyplace, and not really noticing much improvement, I ran on Fuel Moto's MAP and fine tuned the lower range of it where I spend 99 percent of the time with the bike anyhow.
Perfect success, and the last long run we did with the bike netted 45mpg's and I don't think we ever ran under 70mph for 99 percent of that trip. BIG improvement from the mid 30's it got when purchased, and high 30's after all the bolt ons were in place......Cliff
The other problem that you have with the later 103 engines using the emission cams is that they are "flat" on power right to start with. You can nail down a tune with one, then add fuel/timing clear across the load/speed range and they "feel" pretty much the same no matter where it's at, at least if you are trying to measure improvements by the "seat of your pants". Both our local dyno expert and tech at Fuel Moto told me those engines require better cams if you really want to get decent power out of them, otherwise your are up against a brick wall when it comes to full throttle tuning.
So after pissing around with data logging and custom tuning everyplace, and not really noticing much improvement, I ran on Fuel Moto's MAP and fine tuned the lower range of it where I spend 99 percent of the time with the bike anyhow.
Perfect success, and the last long run we did with the bike netted 45mpg's and I don't think we ever ran under 70mph for 99 percent of that trip. BIG improvement from the mid 30's it got when purchased, and high 30's after all the bolt ons were in place......Cliff
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,067
Likes: 11,085
From: San Diego, CA
I understand your intention, but I think you'll find your logic is faulty.
AFR's are set in the base map from Fuel Moto, and at heavy throttle you're usually running open loop (AFR's outside the 14.3-15.2 range). Autotune basic will adjust VE's for the entire range...basically adjusting for your set-up.
Try autotuning for the entire range. you can always go back to the map you have now if you're not satisfied.
I have loaded an FM tune (which runs well on it's own) and run auto tune basic two ways.
One way, I drive within my normal riding profile (fairly mellow, cruising style) while auto tuning.
The other, I drive trying to hit most cells. This is where I try to vary the throttle/load as I drive, to include some full throttle roll-ons in 3rd gear. Using more WOT inputs than I normally drive.
I'm lucky to have varied roads where I live. My auto tune loop includes; long, gradual hills, winding roads, a couple of stretches of level roads, and freeway. In both auto tune styles, I usually get 4% average change within about 40-50 min of riding time.
BUT..... my experience has been that if I drive normal, instead of trying to hit all the cells, my tune ends up giving better MPGs ....
I don't pretend to know why, it just does....
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16,271
Likes: 15,108
From: Somewhere SW
I strongly suggest you install the FM base map and run several autotunes. That will adjust the VE's for your specific needs and modifications.
I don't understand why anyone would only tune part of the throttle range. You want to adjust the VE's for the entire throttle range. Make several runs over all operating conditions to get the best possible coverage. Monitor the hits on the screen to see the areas you have covered.
I think you'll find that FM provides a great base map, but it will get even better with some autotune runs.
I don't understand why anyone would only tune part of the throttle range. You want to adjust the VE's for the entire throttle range. Make several runs over all operating conditions to get the best possible coverage. Monitor the hits on the screen to see the areas you have covered.
I think you'll find that FM provides a great base map, but it will get even better with some autotune runs.
The map you get is a good one but the VEs will still have to be dialed in.
Like others have said you can take the bike to get it dyno tuned and try to squeeze every last drop of horse power out of it but that also depends on the skill level of the person tuning it.
I'm running a modified stock canned map on mine with some minor adjustments and the bike is a hell of a lot quicker than it was stock.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,566
Likes: 55
From: Londonderry, NH
I did that but it's difficult, if not near impossible to measure those results without a dyno or a day at the drag strip. The narrow band 02's are too limited for best power production, but well within range for drivability and fuel economy tuning.
The other problem that you have with the later 103 engines using the emission cams is that they are "flat" on power right to start with. You can nail down a tune with one, then add fuel/timing clear across the load/speed range and they "feel" pretty much the same no matter where it's at, at least if you are trying to measure improvements by the "seat of your pants". Both our local dyno expert and tech at Fuel Moto told me those engines require better cams if you really want to get decent power out of them, otherwise your are up against a brick wall when it comes to full throttle tuning.
So after pissing around with data logging and custom tuning everyplace, and not really noticing much improvement, I ran on Fuel Moto's MAP and fine tuned the lower range of it where I spend 99 percent of the time with the bike anyhow.
Perfect success, and the last long run we did with the bike netted 45mpg's and I don't think we ever ran under 70mph for 99 percent of that trip. BIG improvement from the mid 30's it got when purchased, and high 30's after all the bolt ons were in place......Cliff
The other problem that you have with the later 103 engines using the emission cams is that they are "flat" on power right to start with. You can nail down a tune with one, then add fuel/timing clear across the load/speed range and they "feel" pretty much the same no matter where it's at, at least if you are trying to measure improvements by the "seat of your pants". Both our local dyno expert and tech at Fuel Moto told me those engines require better cams if you really want to get decent power out of them, otherwise your are up against a brick wall when it comes to full throttle tuning.
So after pissing around with data logging and custom tuning everyplace, and not really noticing much improvement, I ran on Fuel Moto's MAP and fine tuned the lower range of it where I spend 99 percent of the time with the bike anyhow.
Perfect success, and the last long run we did with the bike netted 45mpg's and I don't think we ever ran under 70mph for 99 percent of that trip. BIG improvement from the mid 30's it got when purchased, and high 30's after all the bolt ons were in place......Cliff
I agree that a cam change will make a big difference. If you really want to enjoy the way your bike performs, change the cams. My 96 with Andrews 48 cams is a joy to ride. It makes lots of torque and power where you can really use it, and still gets 42-44 MPG...and the tune isn't optimized for fuel economy.
Cruiser
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 182
Likes: 13
From: Ohio
My intentions were to change the cams, and also have our local dyno expert put a tune in the bike while it was there, but I ended up selling the bike.
Overall I was very happy with where the bike ended up for fuel economy and how well it ran in the "normal" range.
Comparing that engine to the ones that powered the three other bikes I've owned it was disappointing. The 2013 103 was a "turd" for power production, even after all the money I threw at it. Thinking back I should have changed the cams before all the other upgrades, and the wide ban 02 upgrade. This would have made for a much better end result.......Cliff
Overall I was very happy with where the bike ended up for fuel economy and how well it ran in the "normal" range.
Comparing that engine to the ones that powered the three other bikes I've owned it was disappointing. The 2013 103 was a "turd" for power production, even after all the money I threw at it. Thinking back I should have changed the cams before all the other upgrades, and the wide ban 02 upgrade. This would have made for a much better end result.......Cliff
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,935
Likes: 90
From: Charlotte
Gang,
Last night I finally got around to loading the map and flashing my ECM. I think most of my questions and concerns have been resolved. It's currently raining pretty hard but later in the week, ill take it for a test run.
Once you get the device and connect it, it seems pretty simple. Thanks all for the advice.
Last night I finally got around to loading the map and flashing my ECM. I think most of my questions and concerns have been resolved. It's currently raining pretty hard but later in the week, ill take it for a test run.
Once you get the device and connect it, it seems pretty simple. Thanks all for the advice.
Cruiser
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 182
Likes: 13
From: Ohio
It's pretty cool to do the handlebar mount and watch the tuner over-write the boxes while you ride. Multiple riding sessions on the same MAP and you will find that it will nail down the tune.
I spent a LOT of time with the PV tuner, and wrote over Fuel Moto's basic MAP and saved the upgraded MAP's in positions 4, 5 and 6, keeping good notes along the way. The best overall end result was multiple sessions for several tanks of fuel, just writing over their MAP with my "normal" riding style, and basically forgetting the tuner was even in place.
I ended up with a tune that delivered excellent fuel economy, and I still felt it was getting plenty of fuel and correct timing at heavy load and high rpms for adequate power while avoiding detonation and low EGT's, etc.
As mentioned earlier, it's difficult, if not near impossible to tune for full throttle power by the seat of your pants. You can quick tune anytime you wish, add fuel, timing, etc, and then do some full throttle blasts. The bike will "feel" strong until you start to get way off base, and then at most it may be a little "stinky" after a full throttle blast on deceleration when you are throwing a lot of fuel at it. Wide an 02's would be a nice addition for this type of tuning, IMHO, but I never made it that far, the bike has a new owner......Cliff
I spent a LOT of time with the PV tuner, and wrote over Fuel Moto's basic MAP and saved the upgraded MAP's in positions 4, 5 and 6, keeping good notes along the way. The best overall end result was multiple sessions for several tanks of fuel, just writing over their MAP with my "normal" riding style, and basically forgetting the tuner was even in place.
I ended up with a tune that delivered excellent fuel economy, and I still felt it was getting plenty of fuel and correct timing at heavy load and high rpms for adequate power while avoiding detonation and low EGT's, etc.
As mentioned earlier, it's difficult, if not near impossible to tune for full throttle power by the seat of your pants. You can quick tune anytime you wish, add fuel, timing, etc, and then do some full throttle blasts. The bike will "feel" strong until you start to get way off base, and then at most it may be a little "stinky" after a full throttle blast on deceleration when you are throwing a lot of fuel at it. Wide an 02's would be a nice addition for this type of tuning, IMHO, but I never made it that far, the bike has a new owner......Cliff
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,935
Likes: 90
From: Charlotte
Dang Cliff, wish you lived in Charlotte so u could tune it for me. I hope to gain the knowledge that you have for tuning.
I'll tell ya'll this, my SG rode rough and coughed alot on the 1 hour ride from the mod shop. Its been raining to hard lately to see the results of the tune. But I can't wait.
I'll tell ya'll this, my SG rode rough and coughed alot on the 1 hour ride from the mod shop. Its been raining to hard lately to see the results of the tune. But I can't wait.
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Cruiser
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 182
Likes: 13
From: Ohio
My tuning knowledge for HD's is actually somewhat limited, we don't advertise that service, and I keep most of that work for off-hours out of the shop just to make a little side-money or help out guys I ride with.
Ten years ago we were doing a lot of CV carburetors, and I absolutely love them. Compared to the earlier FI systems about the only difference we'd see at the end of the day was that you had to pull the enrichener for cold starts.
FI is obviously here to stay, so it's going to be more costly to get these engines where we need them to be......Cliff
Ten years ago we were doing a lot of CV carburetors, and I absolutely love them. Compared to the earlier FI systems about the only difference we'd see at the end of the day was that you had to pull the enrichener for cold starts.
FI is obviously here to stay, so it's going to be more costly to get these engines where we need them to be......Cliff
Tourer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 304
Likes: 177
From: Cleburne, Texas
Finally got to do a long run (with some autotunes) on my new Power Vision with Target Tune. Also put on new FM header pipes. Already had FM E-series slip-ons. The Power Vision replaced a Power Commander V. I thought she ran good with the PC-V, but it ain't no comparison with the new head pipe and Power Vision. WOW!! After running 3 autotunes, I couldn't really tell a difference from the FM tune they shipped out when I bought the Power Vision and Target Tune. All of them ran great with no decel popping and outstanding performance. Temperatures were good also. I was still getting lots of red overwrites in the cells when running the 3rd iteration of the autotune and kinda thought it would have been dialed in at that point. I'll continue to run some autotunes and try to get it even more optimized and may even play with enhancing the mileage factor when cruising at 0 to 75.
All in all, I'm very satisfied with the entire combo.
All in all, I'm very satisfied with the entire combo.